Name:dattaswami •
Title: God (Holy Spirit) and Human Incarnation •
Date posted: 05/18/07 17:55
Q: God (Holy Spirit) and Human Incarnation
STATEMENT: - MATHEW 10: 40
Lord Jesus was the human incarnation of the Holy Spirit. The human body of Holy Jesus is like the metallic wire, which was all over, pervaded by the Holy Spirit. Veda says ‘Antarbahischa’ which means that the Holy Spirit pervades all over the body of Human Incarnation. Wherever you touch the wire the electric shock is given. Similarly the entire human body of Holy Jesus is holy. The holiness is the nature of Holy Spirit just like the shock is the property of electricity.
As the electricity cannot be separated from the wire, the Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Holy Jesus. So here the Holy Spirit is the Holy Jesus. Holy Jesus refers this Holy Spirit as His Father. He tells that He was sent by His father as a messenger. Though He and His father are one and the same, He speaks like this for which there is a practical reason i.e., every human being repels with another human being. A man cannot accept another man as God due to Jealousy and Egoism. Bhagavatgita says, “A man will insult Me when I come here in human form (Avajananti mam….)”. For this purpose Holy Jesus wants Himself to be called only as the messenger of the Holy Spirit by the disciples whenever He is introduced to the public. If He tells the truth the egoistic public will not hear even what He preaches and will reject Him. Therefore He is telling His disciples to introduce Him as a messenger only. Ofcourse, the disciples are really the messengers of Holy Jesus.
Holy Spirit has taken over the human body of Holy Jesus and pervaded all over the body to preach the divine knowledge to this world. The same Holy Spirit is sending the disciples for the propagation of the Divine knowledge. Both the body of Holy Jesus and the disciples are instruments of the Holy Spirit chosen for different purposes. The Holy Spirit is preaching through the body of Holy Jesus and is propagating the divine knowledge through disciples. Therefore if you respect the disciple you are respecting the Holy Spirit indirectly. Though both the instruments exist like this, the Holy Spirit is present in Jesus and is not present in the disciples.
Due to this difference the disciple is an indirect instrument and the direct instrument is Holy Jesus. The disciple propagates the divine knowledge after hearing from the Holy Jesus. Therefore when such disciple is respected, Holy Jesus is respected first and then the Holy Spirit. But among the disciples there may be some person who cannot repeat what Holy Jesus exactly preached. In such a case the Holy Spirit will take over the body of that disciple and preaches (Mathew 10: 20). Such a disciple differs from Holy Jesus because the Holy Spirit resides in that disciple for some time only where as the Holy Spirit resides in Jesus all the time.
Holy Jesus is telling that He is the messenger of the Holy Spirit and He is also telling that the disciple is His messenger. He is giving the same status to Himself and the disciple by telling like this. The reason is that some disciple may become jealous in future if He says that He Himself is the Holy Spirit where as the disciple is His messenger only. The difference in the status may bring jealousy. Therefore He is maintaining the equal status so that no devotee becomes jealous of Jesus in the future. Due to jealousy the disciple may slip from Holy Jesus.
When He says that He is only the messenger, this shows the humble and submissiveness of Holy Jesus. He wants His disciples to be humble and submissive to the Holy Spirit through out their lives. For this purpose He sets Himself as an ideal. The Holy Spirit present in the human body of Holy Jesus is the essence of true and infinite knowledge as Veda says “Satyam Jnanam Anantam Brahma….” Humbleness and submissiveness are the fruits of the Divine Knowledge. Therefore the humbleness and submissiveness are the qualities of the Holy Spirit itself. This means whatever Holy Jesus speaks is the statement of the Holy Spirit only.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 05/19/07 5:46
A: Mythology and Knowledge do not mix.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/19/07 5:52
A: "Holy Jesus refers this Holy Spirit as His Father."
Holy Spirit = Divine Mother to me.
Name:dattaswami •
Date: 05/19/07 10:32
A: JMD ;
The Father & Jesus
Jesus is said to be born to only mother without Father. He always praised Father and did not regard His mother so much. When a lady cried that His mother is great, He said that the follower of the instruction of His Father is really great. What is the inner meaning of all this? Does this mean that He disregarded His mother and praised the non-existing Father? No. In His language the Father is God. The mother is the primordial energy. He has gone to the final stage of divine knowledge and realized that God is the root of the root cause. An atheist does not accept Father and believes in the sole existence of mother (nature). A theist believes in both. A realized devotee believes only God, since the nature is also created by God. Without realizing this inner concept, the Christianity is divided into two schools of son and mother taking everything in physical sense. The son of virgin means the concept of science, which says that a child is produced from Nature which is in the form of parents.
In science, both mother and father are equally important representing the sperm and ovum. This is the material sense, which is not here. In spiritual sense, both are nature or mother only. There are so many couples without children. The will of God is the father without which no child is produced. But God is hidden always and is inferred by knowledge. This point is represented in the example of father and mother even in physical sense. Therefore, Jesus caught the root of root cause, who is the God or divine Father and not this primordial energy or mother up to which only science can go based on perceptional analysis. This does not mean that Jesus really disregarded His mother and this explanation also does not mean that one should disregard the mother. In the physical sense both are equal because both are mother only in spiritual sense. God is the father in the spiritual sense, who is the hidden cause in both the concept and simile.
At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami
Anil Antony
www.universal-s-pirituality.org
Universa-l- Spirituality for World Peace [email protected]
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/19/07 15:48
A: The Father The Son and The Holy Ghost (Spirit)means the continuation of generations filled with spark of the divine light within all of God's(Goddess's for some of us) children.There is nothing wrong with gaining Knowledge as we learn all our lives until we give up our last breath.People invent stories to explain in an entertaining way so that we can understand and accept with out fear.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/19/07 16:11
A: I disagree but methinks dattaswami has a fear of the Feminine. Recall, when Jesus is baptized a dove appears - that is a symbol of the Goddess/God the Mother. Also, if we are to 'be born again' however can one do that without a mother! Ah, the power of motherhood, which men tried to take over, so we have all the laughable myths, such as Athena being born from Zeus' head ! heh. Typical male fantasy, eh?
Also, many I believe miss the point of Jesus referring to God as Father - because they think 'literally' only. What Jesus, in my belief, was saying is that the only authority is God, and because to the people of his day, only Fathers had any authority, as women were pretty much just property, that's why he uses Father. (to the crowds at least, but within his inner circle, he prayed to 'his Father of Truth, and my Mother, the Spirit.')
This is why Jesus says to 'call no man on earth your father' - meaning, God is authority not men (who very much made up their own rules, to push women out of religion.) And that's why Jesus says that those who follow him are his mother, brother and sister. (but not father). But, that's what happens when people are always 'literal' minded, and, if it means worshipping the masculine only, well male supremacists just love that don't they!
In the NT Jesus says that only God is to be referred to as 'Holy Father', yet the pope claims that title for himself.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/20/07 2:09
A: dattaswami ,
You said:
"Lord Jesus was the human incarnation of the Holy Spirit",
"VEDA says:
‘Antarbahischa’ which means that the Holy Spirit pervades all over the body of Human Incarnation"
And PAUL said:
"Jesus is the son of God"
And the Emperor Constantene and the bishops of Rome says:
"Jesus is on the three person (trinity) and all one God.
God said:
"MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN."
And Jesus said:
"THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD."
"NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE."
"THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
And Jesus prayed to God:
"..HE WENT OFF TO THE MOUNTAIN TO PRAY, AND HE SPENT THE WHOLE NIGHT IN PRAYER TO GOD."
And then you follow it by these statements:
1- Therefore the humbleness and submissiveness are the qualities of the Holy Spirit itself.
-------You are wrong, those are the qualities of men on earth, please do no make human equal to God, and the picture of Him or make statues of Him from what you ever imsgine. No one knows God and no one saw God. God send His messages to His messenger, the prophets by the way of the angels.
2- This means whatever Holy Jesus speaks is the statement of the Holy Spirit only.
---------That is wrong, and saying that you make Jesus as not telling the truth!!!, Jesus said:
"THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S WHO SENT ME."
So, please do not make Jesus a liar, just to bring you belief and the ones you believe in and make things equal to Jesus and His message.
I hope the others (Panluna & JMD) understand what your plans are, from this post and the many others that you open in one day.
Name:dattaswami •
Date: 05/20/07 6:55
A: JMD;
The human incarnation is a replica of the divine Father and Secret behind Miracles
The human incarnation is a replica of the divine Father. God is the divine Father and controls the creation (Mother). The creation is represented by female and God as male based on the ancient Indian tradition in which the female is always under the control of male. Manusmruti says that the female is controlled by the father in the childhood, by the husband in youth and by the son in the old age. Brahma, who created, controls the creation like father. Vishnu, who maintains, controls the creation like husband. When the creation comes to the end (Old age), Shiva controls the creation like son. But what about the son who is a replica of God i.e. the human incarnation? The son having the aspect of God is also the controller of the mother. But the son also has the other aspect of the human body that is delivered by the mother. Therefore he respects the mother always and when a rare occasion comes, he shows his male character and controls the mother. But such occasion is very rare and therefore the mother will not mistake her son. The same God having the male character controls the creation representing the female character always as the father, as the husband and as a son. Therefore the human incarnation always behaves as an obedient son of the mother only following all the rules of nature.
Krishna never showed any super power throughout the eighteen days of the war. He was following the rules of Prakruti (Mother) like an obedient son only. When a rare and inevitable occasion came to protect Arjuna, He hid the sun by His Maya and created a false sunset. This is violation of nature but the mother will not mistake for it. She knows that her son is in need of such violation since it is inevitable. She co-operates with her son. Thus the human incarnation is liked by both the Father and mother.
Whenever the human incarnation exhibits the super power, the nature also co-operates like mother to her son. Thus it is not treated as violation of the nature. The nature is not insulted here. Whenever there is a necessity of a miracle, it occurs spontaneously because the nature also co-operates with the son in the divine program. Even God does not like to violate the rules of the creation. Therefore the power of violation of the natural rules (Maya) is kept with the God only (Mayinam tu Maheshwaram –Gita). God as father or as husband or as son does not like to disturb the independent status of the nature. World is separated from God as an object of entertainment with individuality.
God gives equal status to the nature (Prakrutim Purushamchaiva –Gita). Same is the case with the son of God. He has the Maya limited to Himself only and does not like to exhibit it for name and fame. No son will insult his mother for his name and fame. Similarly, the father or husband towards the daughter or wife. When a situation of emergent requirement comes, even the mother, daughter, or wife will not mistake for the violation and in fact co-operates. This is the difference between the human incarnation and the human being on exhibiting super powers.
The demon always exhibits the super powers and insults the mother for his fame and supremacy. The mother will finally insult him in such a way that he is completely destroyed. Here also, the attitude is not revenge but transformation of the soul only. In the childhood, Krishna exhibited a series of miracles continuously because it was very much pressing emergency because His own life was under threat. If He does not save His own life, He cannot implement the divine program for which He has come down.
At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami
Anil Antony
www.universal-s-pirituality.org
Universa-l- Spirituality for World Peace [email protected]
Name:dattaswami •
Date: 05/20/07 6:56
A: Panluna;
Creation is compared to Female and Creator is compared to Male
The creation is compared to female and the creator is compared to male. The creation is controlled by the creator. Generally the female is controlled by the male. Following this convention, the concept is represented accordingly. Goddess Lakshmi is pressing the feet of the Lord Narayana as a servant. Here some misunderstand this as the male domination. Since the male domination existed in nature, the concept is represented like that. This does not mean that the concept supports the male domination. Even in the ancient tradition, there used to be some cases of female domination over the males. According to that tradition God is represented by the female or Parashakti whose throne is carried by Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva on their shoulders.
Sankara praises God in female form in Soundaryalahari in which it is stated that Brahma creates the universe from the dust of Her lotus feet, Vishnu carries it on His head and Shiva powders it and applies on His body as ash. (Taniyamsam Pamsum….). Here God is in the female-medium and the souls are in the mediums of males. Here Vishnu represents the soul and Adiparashakti represents God. Therefore the domination of male or female is not the point here, which may vary from case to case. But the domination of God over souls is the reality that is to be represented.
Rama is God and Sita is the soul. Suppose two females or two males act as Rama and Sita on the stage, the domination of Rama over Sita on the stage should not be disturbed. The domination of anyone over the other behind the screen is not at all considered on the stage. Even if the dominating male acts as Sita and the submissive female acts as Rama, the domination of Rama over Sita on the stage is inevitable. Therefore the human incarnation whether male or female is the master and the human beings whether males or females are the servants.
When the human incarnation of Durga appeared to kill Mahishasura, Durga is female and Mahishasura is male. You cannot give victory to Mahishasura since he is male and defeat to Durga since She is female. Let the dominations and suppressions of males and females be restricted to the human beings only as social problems and let them not enter and pollute the spiritual concepts.
Similarly, the caste system. Krishna, the human incarnation is a non-brahmin. The sages who were Brahmins prostrated to Krishna. Even today, the Brahmin priests are washing the feet of the statue of Krishna and drinking the washings as pious water (Teertham). Rama was non-brahmin but Ravana was a brahmin. Rama is the hero who is the God. Ravana is the villain who is a demon. Because of their caste, the hero and villain cannot be interchanged. Datta, Vamana, Parasurama and Kalki are brahmins. Rama, Krishna and Buddha are non-brahmins. Therefore the human incarnation is the master, the other human beings are servants, and the caste system has no relevance in the spiritual field.
Ravana was a male and a Brahmin. Gopikas were women and belonged to the backward caste. Gopikas were given Goloka which is the top most place. Ravana was thrown into hell. Even if you consider Jaya as the real actor in the role of Ravana, he became only the gatekeeper of the Lord. Therefore in the devotees also, the concept of male or female and the concept of caste system does not exist except the devotion proved by sacrifice. Gopikas proved their devotion by sacrificing butter (wealth), Dharma, children and finally they sacrificed even their lives by jumping into fire when Krishna left the human body, even though their husbands were alive! See the quality of devotion of Gopikas who were women of backward caste.
See the state of Ravana who is male and brahmin. He desired for the wife of the Lord! He could not recognize Rama who was the human incarnation at that time and neglected Him as an ordinary human being. Ravana was a great scholar of Vedas and Shastras. The four vedas and the six shastras represent the ten heads of Ravana. He did unimaginable penance. He believed only in the energetic forms of the upper worlds. He never considered the human race. He thought himself as God due to the super powers attained by Him. Sudama was a male and a brahmin but stole the part of parched rice to be given to the Lord while both were students. Sudama was punished with severe poverty for that sin. Therefore the Lord Krishna proved that there is no caste or gender for Him except the proved devotion which is the sacrifice.
Veda says that all the souls are females (daughters) only and the God is the only male or Purusha (Atha Purusho ha vai Narayanah, Striyah Satih Taume Pumsa ahuh –Veda). However if you call the soul as Purusha based on the root meaning that the soul or awareness is lying in the body (Puri sete iti), then God is called as Purushottama meaning that He is the best soul due to the extra presence of God. In fact the word Purushottama means the human incarnation. The best soul is also a soul. The human incarnation is also a human being. The best soul is also different from all the souls by some extraordinary point i.e. the extra existence of God. In the human incarnation, God exists beyond perishable external gross body and also beyond the internal permanent Jeevatma (Causal body with the subtle body which means the awareness with its waves). This is clearly stated in Gita while explaining the word Purushottama (Prathitah Purushottamah).
At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami
Anil Antony
www.universal-s-pirituality.org
Universa-l- Spirituality for World Peace [email protected]
Name:dattaswami •
Date: 05/20/07 6:57
A: sam;
Secret of Human Incarnation
The human incarnation is an association of God and the human soul in the same human body like the boss with his PA residing in the same house. This is the meaning of Veda “Dvasuparna ….”. This Veda can be also applied to the case of ordinary human being because even in the human body of ordinary human being, two items co-exist which are soul and intelligence as the owner and driver of the chariot. Shankara gives this alternative application of the above Veda. In the Kurukshetra war, several chariots are seen with drivers and owners, which represent the ordinary human beings. In such chariots both the owner and driver are ordinary human beings. Similarly, in the ordinary human beings both the soul and intelligence are the imaginable items of creation. But in the chariot of Arjuna, Krishna (the unimaginable God) is sitting as the driver and Arjuna, the owner is imaginable ordinary human being. This single chariot represents the human incarnation.
At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami
Anil Antony
www.universal-s-pirituality.org
Universa-l- Spirituality for World Peace [email protected]
Name:dattaswami •
Date: 05/20/07 6:59
A: sam;
God and soul are the two components mixed homogeneously to form a single phase called human incarnation. As the single phase I can call Myself as soul as well as God. Two metals acting as the components are homogeneously mixed to form a single phase called as alloy. Gold and copper mix freely to form the single phased commercial Gold. As a phase it is one but as components it is two. These two aspects are Advaita and Dwaita. Gold is the major component and copper is the minor component. This is Vishishta Advaita, in which God is treated as the major component (Angi or Sheshi) and the mixed soul is treated as the minor component (Anga or Shesha).
Please note the most important point in these three schools of philosophy and that is:
These three schools are dealing only the human incarnation (alloy) and not God and soul, which are quite different and separate.
If you keep Gold and copper even side by side, there is no debate because they are clearly two different and separate items even according to a small kid. These three schools deal only God mixed with a selected soul (Son of God) and do not deal even God and a liberated soul who is very close to God. When the two items exist clearly there is no debate of one or two even if they are very closely associated.
But when those two get mixed and appear as one, the debate of one or two or two in one comes into the picture. Shankara says that it is one because the devotee should worship the human incarnation as God only without the idea of the soul. Even the commercial Gold is called as Gold because Gold is predominating component. The presence of copper is neglected. Without copper, gold cannot be ductile and cannot be made as the chain. Similarly, without the soul God cannot be perceived and cannot be meditated upon. The angle of Shankara is correct for any devoted soul towards the human incarnation. But when God exits, the soul is no more God. Arjuna cremated even the human body of Krishna .
When God left Parashurama, the latter was insulted. In such occasions the devotee should come to the concept of Dwaita of Madhva. By following the middle Vishishta Advaita, the devotee should respect the soul also since it is the minor component, which cannot be isolated from the major component. It is Dwaita with the final effect of Advaita. Without knowing all this main essence and the basic contexts of these three schools, the followers are quarrelling with each other applying a particular school in another context. The wrong context is God and separately existing soul which are made the subject of these three schools. There is no debate in the case of two blocks of Gold and copper even if they are very closely associated. When the context is gone, where is the debate, which is based on the wrong context? The fruits have fallen in the drainage and the quarrel was for the useless vacant basket!
Neglecting copper as a trace of impurity Shankara treats the commercial Gold as pure gold. The lady who wears the golden ornaments should think that the ornaments are of pure gold. Madhva says that the copper atom present in the commercial gold is not the atom of gold under any circumstances. This is also correct from the point of a scientist who analyzes the gold and studies the properties of gold and copper separately. The views of the lady and the scientist are quite different and both the views are correct in their own contexts. The view is based on the context and here the reference is very important.
Name:dattaswami •
Date: 05/20/07 6:59
A: sam;
A devotee should treat the human incarnation as absolute God and serve God directly. Otherwise the very purpose of the human incarnation is lost. But at the same time when the properties of the human body and the human soul are exhibited like birth, illness, hunger, human feelings, death etc., the devotee should become scientist and must realize that God is beyond these properties. Some times the Lord exhibits these properties extensively to test your firm faith and devotion in Him.
During such tests, you should realize Dwaita of Madhva and should stand firm in the tests. Both Advaita and Dwaita are essential like the two eyes, but you should not open both the eyes simultaneously in the case of the human incarnation. Depending on the context you should open the corresponding eye. Ramanuja maintains both these concepts together since He is the bridge between Advaita and Dwaita. Since gold and copper cannot be separated and isolated, it is Advaita. But gold is not copper and copper is not gold and therefore it is Dwaita. He treats the world as the body of God, which consists of inert materials and souls. For a scholar the body is like a shirt according to Gita. The inert objects (Achit) and souls (Chit) are like the threads of the shirt with different colors. The world is like the blue color or adjective (Visheshana) and God is like the flower or substratum (Visheshya) and both are inseparable according to Ramanuja. The inseparable aspect brings Advaita and the two separate items establish Dwaita. All this is only in the case of the human incarnation. There is no debate in pure gold or in pure copper.
God as creator of this world is untouched by the world and remains as pure gold. The world never touches God and stands as a separate scene (Drushya) and God (Drashta) is entertained by the self-imaginary world, which is the cinema. The entertainment by seeing the cinema (Druk) is only one aspect of the seer (Drashta). The seer is also hearing the dialogues of the cinema. Now from this angle, God is hearer (Shrota) and the dialogues of the cinema are to be heard (Shravya). The process of hearing (Shravana) is not the process of seeing (Druk). Therefore, awareness is only the process of knowing the object and it is not creating or controlling or destroying the object. The soul can know the object but cannot destroy or control or create the object. The soul can create, know, control and destroy its imaginary world. But in the actual world the soul can just know the objects and neither creates nor controls nor destroys the objects. Knowing the objects is common point to both actual and imaginary worlds in the case of the soul or God. But the creation, maintenance and destruction of the actual world are not in the hands of the soul and are not the common points but these three are only similar points.
It means that as you create maintain, and destroy your imaginary world, God also creates, maintains and destroys the actual world. It is a simile but Shankara expressesed it as metaphor in the case of atheists to uplift them. The metaphor should be taken as the simile only. If the agent says that the girl is just the rose flower, it means that the girl looks like a rose flower. This does not mean that the girl is actually rose flower. The soul and imaginary world can be taken as the best simile for God and actual world. The simile helps you to understand the concept and at any time you should not think that the simile and concept are one and the same. A similar point is not the common point. Therefore, the creation, control and destruction of objects are the three similar points in both the actual world and imaginary world. God and soul are similar. Actual world and imaginary world are similar. The only common point is that God and soul (assuming that the soul is a perfect scholar) know the actual world and imaginary world. This common point cannot make God as soul and the actual world as the imaginary world.
Name:nikkip •
Date: 07/20/07 4:55
A: i am continually amazed that few people discuss jesus's transfiguration and mentioning that the Holy Spirit would come later to assist all of us. the pentecost seems to be when that happened. why are most people hung up on the crucifixion and the past rather than the Holy Spirit rebirth and the future for the people that want it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/20/07 13:08
A: Nikkip,
We talk about everything on these posts.What is your point?
