Name:Shlomo •
Title: Yeshiyahu 53 for Mark •
Date posted: 04/25/07 22:53
Q: Mark,
According to Rashi, Ezra 9 was fulfilled by Agrippa and the prince was Titus.
As you know there were no chapter divisions and chapter 53 begins actually with 52:13. Here is my take on chapter 53:
52:13 "Behold, My Servant [Israel] will prosper. Israel in the singular is called G_d's servant throughout Yeshiyahu, both explicitly [ 41:8-9, 44:1-2, 45:4, 48:20, 49:3] and implicitly [ 42:19-20, 43:10] the Messiah is not. Other references would be Jer.30:10 look at verse 17 - clearly of the Jewish people.
52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he [the servant] startle amny nations, the kings will stand speechless. For that which had benn told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard? This is talking
about the nations and their respective kings and they will be amazed at what happensto the "servant of the L_rd," They are the ones who made the statement who would have believed what we have heard? 52:15 tells me explicitly that it is the nations of the world who are doing the talking in Yeshiyahu 53. Check out Micah 7:12-17.
53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L_rd been revealed? G_d's arm refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations. [ check 52:8-12, 63:12, Deut. 4:34, Deut.7:19, Ps.44:33 ].
53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is applicable to Israel [ Yesh.60:15; Ps 44:13-14] it can not be reconciled with the new coveant account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all [Luke 4:14-15] and followed by multitudes [ Matit.4:25 ] who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Yerushalayim [ Matit.21:9-11 ] Evena s he was taken to be crucified, amultitude bemoaned his fate [Luke 23:27]. Jesus had to be taken by force, as the rulers feared "riot of the people" [Mk. 14:1-2].
53:3 ".....and aquainted with disease." Israel adversities are frequently likened to sickness
[ Yesh.1:5-6, Jer. 10:19, Jer. 30:12]
53:4 "surely our disease he carried and our pains he bore." [Matit.8:17] this is correctly translated and said to be literally [not spiritually] fulfilled in Jesus healing of the sick, a reading inconsistant with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.
53:4 :Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten, smitten of G_D and afflicted." [ Jer.30:17 G_d's servant Israel[30:10], "it is Zion, no one cares for her."
53:5 "But he was wounded from [ not the word "for" ] our transgressions, he was crushed from [ not the word "for"] our iniquities." The nations had thought the servant [ Israel ] was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins[ 53:4 ]. But they now realize that the servants sufferings stemmed from their own actions and sinfulness. This is further discussed in Jer. 10:25 & 50:7, Yeshiyahu 42:4.
53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so did he not open his mouth." Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause, this can be developed in Ps.44, King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression and Israel is described as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the middle of an unfaithful gentile nations [44:11-22].
53:8 "From dominion and jusdgement he was taken away." This is the correct translation from Hebrew. Jesus never had any rights to rulership or judgement at least not on the first coming. [Jn. 3,8,12,18].
53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living." Israel is described as "cut off" in Ez. 37:11
53:8 "From my people's sins, there was injury to them. Here the Yeshihayu makes it absolutely clear that the oppressed servant is a collective servant, not a single individual. The word "lamoth" used in scriptures always means "TO THEM" never "TO HIM" and maybe found as an example in Ps.99:7.
53:9 "His grave was assigned with the wicked men."
[ Ez 37:11-14 ]. Israel again is described as being cut off and G_d promises to open its graves and bring back into its own land. Figurative death.
See Shem:10:17, II Sam.9:8, 16:9.
53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Notice the word death is in the plural form? This makes it clear that it is a collective servant. In other words, Israel will come to life when the exile ends.[Yech.37:14].
53:9 "He had done no violence." Is this truely consistant with Mait.21:12, Mk. 11:15-16, Lk.19:45 Lk.19:27 Matit 10:34 Lk. 12:51 of the account of Jesus?
53:10 "He shall see his seed." The word for "seed" always refers to physical descendents.
[ Ber.12:7,15:13,46:6, Shem.28:43. Spiritual descendents are translated as "sons" [ Dev.14:1 ].
53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but the question is, how could the days be prolonged if that person is G_d?
53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant will cause many to be just." The Servant
[ Israel ] will cause many to be just, he will not justify the many. The Jewish mission is to serve as a light to the nations which will unltimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true G_d by example and by instructing the nations in G-d's laws.[Yesh.2:3-4, Micah 4:2-3]. This is where most people misconstrue the term "chosen people." They were chosen not as if the were any better than anyone else, but to set an example and instruct.
53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." The question is, if Jesus is G_d, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to G_d [ Ps.44 ] who will be rewarded and this is the manner described more fully in Yeshiyahu 52 and 54?
There were several Rabbis that had their own opinion of Yeshiyahu 53. But the signs, not times are the key. The Rabbis thought in their times, not signs. Shabbati Zev thought he was the messiah of his time.
The key to the word "Elohim" is in the usage of context. The word is not plural in the common sense of the word. Example: "Marks attributes" You have been pluralized. Because of your abundant attributes you are now known as Marks or Markim.
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/26/07 5:43
A: TO: Shlomo -
Thank you very much for responding! Finally, there's someone I can have a genuine two-way conversation with.
You gotta know that I just got home from class a short time ago. I'm not sure where you're located, but I'm in Hawaii. Here, it's 10:56 pm, and I'm kinda tired...........Additionally, some responses might of necessity require some patience, as I have to work, attend Lodge, try to repair my automobile and (in short) attend to the usual business of each day.
Not trying to bore you with all this, but to explain some of the time lags involved in these blurbs.
I appreciate the effort you put into this most recent entry. I will read it carefully and then respond.
I'm really not looking for an argument......just a well thought-out conversation, that I hope will (end up) relating to the primary subject of this website (the Talpiot Tomb and it's relationship to Jesus and his family).
I tend to believe the find and Simcha's basic premise are legitimate. I find the evidence to be compelling. Nevertheless, I'm not dogmatic about it and simply REALLY want to see the academic community (AND the religious community) give it a fair investigation; without the invective, name-calling and fear (on both sides of the aisle), that have so far ensued.
My position is that the only people who have anything to fear about this discovery, are those people and/or institutions that have a vested interest in its ultimate outcome.
Many, (not all) christians fear that the Talpiot Tomb may prove their faith to be wrong.
Many academicians (not all) fear that their own pet theories (as well as their relative standing in the Academic world) may be threatened by the outcome of a serious investigation.
Meanwhile, those of us who are interested only in learning the truth, without any particular axe to grind, really shouldn't need to worry at all.
I personally believe it's quite possible to be a committed chistian AND a genuine seeker of truth..............IN FACT, isn't that what EVERY Christian should be????
Christians (I count myself in that catagory) are only REQUIRED by scripture to believe the truth. ('the truth will set you free'). So why be afraid of it?!?
If Christianity is true, than NO discovery (scientific or otherwise) can undermine its claims.
But those christians who have a vested interest in supporting particular creeds, MAY be so creed-bound that they refuse to let any TRUTH alter their belief system; and thus feel that they have a great deal to lose.
The truth of the matter is (however) that you and I may not be so far apart as one would think.
Give it some time and good-will on both sides and no-matter who is right or who is wrong the conversation can be rewarding.
Please know, that I am NOT going to try to convert you. That genuinely is NOT my object. I have no desire to do that; in fact I don't think I could!!
Futhermore, I have great respect for the learning of the rabbi's. Few people understand the Old Testament as well as they do. Most christian scholars can't even compare with their rabbinic counterparts.
So, having tried to make my position of tremendous respect clear, I hope that we can carry on this conversation in a really friendly way.
I'll share more information about myself as time goes on and as it becomes pertinent.
I'll continue at this site later.
Sincerely,
Mark
Believe me,
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/26/07 5:48
A: P.S.
The statement "Believe me" at the end of my last entry was part of a sentence that I started to type, but thought that I deleted. Sorry.......
