Name:garysmplsmn •
Title: Who buried these people? •
Date posted: 03/05/07 22:26
Q: I am convinced that the questions raised by the makers of this film are quite valid. But, there is a lot left to consider. Such as:
What did Jesus’ brother James know and when did he know it?
Did Pilate intend a partial crucifixion of the “King of the Jews” to mollify his wife’s concerns, while humiliating the local Jewish leaders - who in turn had played the “friend of Caesar” card to force his hand?
Did Jesus survive the crucifixion, “appear” to be a resurrected messiah to his closest followers, then ship out to France, -er Gaul, with Mary Magdelene (and maybe his mother) in tow (or maybe they towed him), have a son (or two or three) there, one or more of whom remained and had descendents?
If so, when – and why - did he, Maria, Mariamne, and Judah return to Jerusalem?
Would his brother James not have known if Jesus was (back) in Jerusalem, alive or dead?
Who buried them?
Might some Pharisees – who also believed in the resurrection and therefore might have put their family bones in above-ground tombs with ossuaries – have known of the Jesus family tomb?
Might this be one (additional) reason why they became antagonistic toward the Jesus Movement?
Had Paul’s profound and inspiring interpretation of Jesus’ “death” and “resurrection” spread Jesus’ fame to so many Jews that when James, the leader of the Jerusalem church, realized the truth, he could not bring himself to publicly do anything about it?
Who knows, maybe their unexpected presence was also an unwelcome surprise, and they were done in by those who had the most to lose if the truth came to light.
But, who, apart from Dostoyevski, would suspect church leaders of suppressing the truth and actually killing off their own “divinity?”
Tune in again next time when we hear the Hindu prophet Elvis sing: “I ain’t nothin’ but a hound dog!”
Name:hbic3 •
Date: 03/09/07 9:01
A: Huh?
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/14/07 1:10
A: The point of this discussion thread is to raise the question of what combination of events would most logically explain Jesus' burial in the Talpiot tomb AND the general assertion of the disciples that they had seen Jesus alive after the crucifixion. Since there is some evidence pointing to the possibility that Jesus' brother James was buried in the same family tomb, would he not have been aware of the tomb and who was in it? Believers might seize on this as "proof" that Jesus could not have been buried in the tomb while James was alive or James would have reported that. I am not completely convinced of that. The resurrection was something which the movement Jesus belonged to and briefly lead believed in quite fervently. There are people today who say that tax cuts for the rich are the cause of any positive economic growth, but that does not make it so. It's more a matter of how you WANT to read the evidence. Was there ever any evidence beyond the first tomb being found empty?
The letter of James makes no mention of the resurrection. Could that be because James knew the reports of Jesus' resurrection were greatly exaggerated? A BBC film on the tomb in Kashmir contains the idea that the Jews of this period who believed in resurrection thought of the term more the way we would use the term "resuscitation." If Jesus did in fact revive, and yet wound up being buried in the Talpiot tomb, how long did he live? Did he go elsewhere as some legends have it? Why did he return? I don't regard either the New Testament account or the Talpiot tomb as proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
It just seems that, if this evidence is true, some theory or theories should be developed as to what the disciples - particularly James the brother of Jesus - actually believed and what that belief was actually based on. Perhaps the best explanation is simply that the accounts of the resurrection really date to a point in time after those who had known Jesus directly were no longer alive, and their successors embellished stories to keep the flock remaining after the fall of Jerusalem from leaving the fold. Christianity was not the result of the patient work of a single person. It was the result of many people working somewhat independently of each other and accountability only became a concern when the followers of one disciple encountered the followers of another. A chain letter might be better organized.
In any case, the people whose remains were found in those ossuaries were buried by others and those others almost certainly knew members of the Jerusalem church, if they were not themselves members of it. Who suppressed that information and when?
Name:KevinBerg •
Date: 03/14/07 3:15
A: You're completely ignoring the fact that they stabbed Jesus in His side with a sword and blood & water flowed out. First, the separation of blood & water signifies death. Second, this was a SWORD not just a knife or dagger, so even IF 6 hours on the cross didn't completely kill Him (unlikely because NO ONE ever survived the cross), the loss of blood from the gash along with the suffering and anguish and crushed lungs from the cross would have killed Him.
If all those things still didn't kill Him, then He truly wasn't just human after all now was He?
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/14/07 10:27
A: Congratulations, Kevin, on demonstrating how much you WANT to believe. The gospel story is quite compelling if you take it at face value. We are not really in disagreement over whether Jesus died. I have no stake in the Da Vinci code version of things. But, the fact remains that these findings certainly challenge the historical understanding of Jesus' resurrection and ascension. The Talpiot tomb is a tomb from the pre-70 AD period and it did contain the ossuaries of a unique set of individuals matching the central family of the New Testament. So, I am looking for a theory of events which best explains BOTH the fact of these burials AND the reports to the contrary in the N.T.
It would seem that there has either been a serious misunderstanding, or deliberate fraud - or both (those privy to the literal truth choosing to keep quiet about it, perhaps because the fiction was so pleasant, so hopeful, and dashing those hopes might have been considered almost treasonous within the inner circles of the Jesus Movement).
Again, I recommend you read the letter of James and ask yourself what Jesus' brother considered most important for people to understand. He does not refer to the resurrection at all. He preaches a morality consistent with the spirit of many gospel passages.
It is Paul, who was not a material witness to the "resurrection" who develops a sophisticated theology based on it. Paul was a Pharisee and Pharisees were one of the Jewish sects who also believed in "the resurrection." So, he was probably predisposed to believe that his vision of Jesus was literal. When Paul presented his gospel message to the elders in Jerusalem, he may have also presented some relief offerings from Diaspora and gentile believers. That aid, combined with the fact that Paul was an intellectual and they were not, may have persuaded Peter and James to accept Paul's theology though it went beyond their own. It is primarily followers of Paul who end up writing - and their successors editing - gospels and the book of Acts which contains the ascension story.
Those who WANT to believe the N.T. literally should also believe literally in a three level cosmos of heaven, earth, and "under the earth" as the church believed for well over a thousand years. Are you going to continue to believe in words or in physical reality? Or as one of the Marx brothers put it: "who ya gonna believe? Me, or your own lyin' eyes?"
Name:joe joe •
Date: 03/15/07 1:27
A: If there was definate evidence of who buried these people, the case would be much more believable.
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/15/07 3:37
A: joe joe,
Well, the point is: someone buried them. To understand what really happened 1950 to 1975 years ago, one must develop hypothetical scenarios. My point is that, even if one accepts as valid that this was the burial site of Jesus and his family, many other questions still have to be answered. Some of them are theological, but others are historical, anthropological, psychological, etc. It's a very cold case, but millions of people who have scrubbed their face every Sunday morning of their life, gone to church, sung a hymn, and put a tidy sum into an offering plate, are entitled to as accurate a picture of reality as it is possible to reconstruct from all the available evidence. The Vatican may hold some of that evidence. More may still be in the ground, or in the holdings of the Israeli government or aniquities dealers. Finding and interpreting documents and artifacts is a lot of work. A credible and transparent inquiry is needed, more than theological debate at this point.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/17/07 13:38
A: Who buried these people?
A good question.
I mean there MUST have been the RECORD of this BURIAL SOMEWHERE.
I wonder why it is NOT in the BIBLE, itself, as it's said that the Gospels were written after JESUS'S diappearance?
Name:sage •
Date: 03/17/07 16:48
A: How can there be proof that the bodies were buried if they put Jesus's bones in there along with them? Catholicism is BASED on his divinity, proved strongly by the resurrection. Bones would directly contradict his divinity.
What I really want to know, is where are the bones NOW? IAA removed them, wrapped them in plastic and reburied them, but where? Did no one keep track of the tomb the bones belonged to and the family name on the ossuaries? At the very least, familial relation should be able to be proved with the bones themselves.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/19/07 22:18
A: I think it is important, still.
Beliefs always have some kind of DIVINE origin, which usually take away the reasonings to ACTupon the teachings of any given RELIGION, divide it's followers and the SPIRIT of UNITY vanishes, quickly.
So I feel even if it is CONFIRMED, and there develop a 100 % crediblity of Jesus 's bones in the assuary , there may be a remaining doubt, that he did not die due to crucifixion, or had died later sometimes.
I think IAA could be consulted, too :-)
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/19/07 23:25
A: Perceptions: "...Beliefs always have some kind of DIVINE origin, which usually take away the reasonings to ACTupon the teachings of any given RELIGION."
If beliefs always have some kind of divine origin, perhaps they are a distraction as often as a direction. If I believe that tax cuts for the investor class will make us all better off, does that mean that voting for those who support such policies will free me from the need to contribute to faith-based charities? (since a rising yacht will eventually lift all life savers) Do you mean that beliefs always HAVE sime kind of divine origin, or that they always CLAIM some kind of divine origin?
"...if it is CONFIRMED, and there develop a 100 % crediblity of Jesus 's bones in the assuary ..."
Just how many times HAVE you taken communion today? This is a theological angle I suspect you could only have derived from reading the gospel of Mary Magdalene.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/21/07 20:30
A: Well Gary, as a believer of ONE GOD I feel that there has to be ...a single origin!....ONE-DIMENSIONAL, and not multi-directional, in other words.
However, it counts where are are looking from, and this very aspect,...DIVIDE US.
The divisions in beliefs take away the the credibility of ACTION, in the sense, that fighting for beliefs , wins, and ACTING upon them for mutual purposes, such as PEACE PROPAGATION, diminishes.
And yes I'm only speculating, like others, about the TOMB issue.
The other theory about migration of Jesus still have more historical evidence, compared to this INSCRIPTION_BASED CHILD PALY!
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/22/07 14:41
A: Perceptions: "as a believer of ONE GOD I feel that there has to be ...a single origin!....ONE-DIMENSIONAL, and not multi-directional, in other words. ...it counts where are are looking from, and this very aspect,...DIVIDE US.
Not sure what to make of the geometry, but socially speaking, one-dimensional people are usually considered boring, however many directions their arguments take. I think it was the author of The Practice of the Presence of God who said: "God is every place. God is no place." I think this thought relates to your or anyone's effort to locate just "where" God is or has been.
Perceptions: "The divisions in beliefs take away the the credibility of ACTION, in the sense, that fighting for beliefs , wins, and ACTING upon them for mutual purposes, such as PEACE PROPAGATION, diminishes."
So, you feel "fighting" for your beliefs is more effective than living them out? This is basically the opposite to the way I feel. There is very little in terms of theology or eschatology I can say with certainty that I believe, but I know in my heart that respecting the rights of others and responding to their needs almost always seems right to me - unless they are starting to monopolize a discussion, thereby crowding out the rights of others. I would not know how to preach Christianity, but I hope that I have the courage and generosity of heart to practice the examples of it that Jesus and his disciples and James illustrated.
What belief or beliefs are you willing to fight for? Are you willing to employ violence to advance that belief? If so, why do you think that will make your belief more "believable?"
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/23/07 17:06
A: Hi Gary,
1- It's better to be a one-dimensional and boring, than to be multi DIRECTIONAL and go ASTRAY!
That was just by the way!
Yet this is what I've felt after your reply, that you did NOT get my point.
I believe in a DIMENTION, where all the dimentions CONVERGES,.
This is mainly that any biological, or physical UNIT tells you about;The structure of a A CELL, OR AN ATOM!
It UNITES us all in a single NATION, that's what I meant, so that we start caring about the UNITY, and forget the DIFFERENCES, for the SAKE OF PEACE.
..........................................-..................................................-................
............Quoted
Perceptions:- "The divisions in beliefs take away the the credibility of ACTION, in the sense, that fighting for beliefs , wins, and ACTING upon them for mutual purposes, such as PEACE PROPAGATION, diminishes."
So, you feel "fighting" for your beliefs is more effective than living them out? This is basically the opposite to the way I feel.
..........Quoted
Again, you got the WRONG impression.
I meant the DIVISION PROVOKES HATE and COMPETITION, only.
Fighting for BELIEFS do the SAME.
Ultimately, it HINDERS PEACE PROPAGATION.
.......................-.....................................-................................
S-o- it is MORE IMPORTANT for the WORLD OF TODAY that we must work for HUMANITY, which ever religion we are following.
NO RELIGION IS AGAINST HUMANITY, ONLY THE IGNORANCE IS!!!
AND PRECISELY, NO ONE IS ACTING UPON THE TEACHINGS, THESE DAYS. THEY ARE FIGHTING AND COMPETING TO WIN.
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/24/07 20:33
A: Perceptions: Ah, I'm with you now. Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you !
