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Name: Perceptions • Title: WHO will come??? • Date posted: 03/17/07 13:26

Q: Kindly do not misunderstand, but DID JESUS MEAN ANOTHER PERSON........THE MESSIAH OF THE END TIMES?

- Who will be REJECTED, at first. (Otherwise if someone lands from the sky he can't be rejected)

- NOE' TIME will be repeated, some selected-- those who will be spirtually alive, others rejected--those who will be spirtually dead.

LOT"S TIME, referring to another kind of affliction of the present time, obviously.

GOSPEL OF LUKE:

Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].

Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles (vulture in other translations)be gathered together.

Name: Perceptions • Date: 03/19/07 22:50

A: Roy and Nate !

What would you say about it???

Name: Perceptions • Date: 04/11/07 9:15

A: Hi Sam,

Kindle forward your views on this. What this Prophecy of the 2 nd. coming meant?

Obliged

Name: onewhoknows • Date: 04/11/07 15:42

A: Perceptions, sorry it is not Roy or Nate. Is Nate still on the forum? .... I wanted to talk to him again. The prophecy in Luke refers to the same Messiah. The first time He came as a lamb and the second He is to come as king.

By the way, the guy in Houston who claims to be Jesus, and has lots of followers, is not the Messiah (Luke 17:23).

Name: Perceptions • Date: 04/11/07 19:22

A: Hi One!

It's an old post of mine . Unfortunately no one responded. I found Sam talking about his coming in another thread , so it reminded me of this old post.
I have no Idea about where Nate could be, might be busy somewhere or might had gone to visit TOJ ( just joking)

Thanks for the information.Well who is Houston anyway?

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/11/07 21:44

A: It could refer to a different person with the same spiritual zeal that Jesus had or perhaps just a reminder in words alone of his teachings.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/12/07 9:19

A: Quoting from "Insight on the Scriptures":

"Farther on, (in Revelations) John says: ""And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army.""(Rev 19:19)

This chapter identifies the leader of the heavenly armies, seated on a white horse, as one who is called "Faithful and True" and "The Word of God." (Rev 19:11-13) Therefore, it is Jesus Christ, The Word, who acts as the commander of God's heavenly armies. (Joh 1:1; Rev 3:14)

Further showing that Christ leads the heavenly forces is the statement that the earthly forces "battle with the Lamb (who is Jesus Christ -Joh 1:29 - but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and fatihful with him will do so." (Rev 17:13, 14)

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/12/07 11:05

A: So IT IS in His words!

Name: sam • Date: 04/12/07 14:15

A: Perceptions,

"Kindle forward your views on this. What this Prophecy of the 2 nd. coming meant?".

In reading these verses we will find that they are examples, many of them mentioned by Jesus (the fig tree another one).
Everyone should know that even Jesus was talking to His disciples, His word are not directed to them only, "The days will come", but to the future generations, those who will witness what is to come.
In this, we see that Jesus attached His example with the stories told about "NOAH" & "LOT". We might ask ourselves Why?, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPEN BEFORE WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

- GE 6:13 And God said unto NOAH, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them (CAN WE SEE THE VIOLENCE THAT HAPPEN AFTER JESUS TIME); and, behold, I will DESTROY THEM with the earth.
- Ge 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when LOT entered into Zoar.
Ge 19:29 And it came to pass, when God DESTROYED THE CITIES of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent LOT out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Jesus started by saying to His disciples:
-"The days will come", those days will come in the future, and that is after Jesus and the disciples time.
-"when YOU SHALL DESIRE to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN and YOU SHALL NOT SEE IT ."
"YOU" at that time.
What about THOSE DAYS, that they will have the desires to see but they shall not see?, are those the days when Jesus was among them teaching them the right way, the word of God, and that they should believe in HIM as the one and only God, as NOAH and LOT did before Him?, But those days of the past will not be the same, and they will not see it again.
Why Jesus telling them that in those days, after His days, they (the people) shall not see? (the day) the same as of His days, because they will stop following His teaching, and making their own, and Jesus wanted to tell them what will happen to them in those days, by saying at the end:

"Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

The exsamples: " THE BODY...THE VOLTURES" which Jesus gave has the same ending as for, "DESTROY THEM" & "DESTROYED THE CITIES" at the time of Noah and Lot.

We find the same stories told of the past prophets. All the prophet brought with them the message of God, and it was clear and simple, but people after they accept it, they try to add and substruct according to what they believe is right and make their own teaching, "SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR (their) TRADITION". And the same stories tell us what was the result of doing such a thing. It always lead to the ditruction, (the people death and the voltures) or the distruction of the cities and its people, except for those who follow the right teaching, they are saved (the followers of Noah and Lat are saved). All that is an advance worning, and people should understand that example.

The Quran gave same example:
"Say, "Observe what is in the heavens and the earth." But of no avail will be SIGNS OR WARNERS to a people who do not believe.
So do they wait except for like (what occured in ) THE DAYS OF THOSE WHO PASSED ON BEFORE THEM? (the days of Noah and Lot and Moses and Jesus). Say, "then wait; indeed, I AM with you among the waiting." Q-10:101/102

"Like the custom of the people of NOAH and of AAD and THAMUD and those after them (Lot etc.). And GOD wants no injustice for His servants."

What I read (in Luke) , does't tell us of the coming of Jesus, but it is no more than an example of His time (the son of man IN HIS DAY) which He compare it to the spreading of light in the heaven (the sky) from one end to the other, and mentioning the rejection OF THIS GENERATION. And what happen before Him will happen again (17:26), and "THE DAYS WILL COME. 17:22" (THE SAMETHING WILL COME IN THE FUTURE.17:26)

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

This is my understanding for what I read in those vesres, I don't mind, and I will be glad if I hear the others opinion.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 04/12/07 19:38

A: Canuckchick,

As a Christian you suppose to support your case by THE WORDS OF JESUS, but as all the others you go to bring stories written by someone else. Here you used many verses from the Revelation (who wrote the revelation?, was it Jesus?).
Also, you mention what John said (of course those are John's and not Jesus word).
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
1:2 He was * in the biginning with God.
Saying that is completely wrong, because this does not agree with the teaching of the church, "the son and the father and the holy gost" as three persons but one God. Here 1:1 & 1:2 cannot be logically accepted, because the first say that "the word. the word with God, and the word was God", and that means, in the biginnng there was the word and the word was God and that to tel that there is ONE GOD. But in the second, thing changed, and to tell us that in the biginning there was someone else with God, "HE" (?) WAS WITH GOD !!!.
"HE WAS"? , Who is the one, who was with God in the biginning?, and from that we understand that God was not alone. And Jesus said:
"THE ONE AND ONLY GOD" & "THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU (GOD), THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ WHOM YOU (GOD) HAVE SENT."
Jesus was sent by God, and He is not the God who sent Jesus. You use the term "GOD BLESS YOU" because the blessing comes only from God.

After all, I can say, What a story!!!, since no one was with God in the biginning, and knows all the truth about God (GOD, WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW...HE, WHO IS IN HEAVEN). Also, I can say this story is false. John started his gospel with a false story and ended it with false story when he sais:
"And there are ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS which Jesus did, which IF THEY WERE WRITTEN IN DETAIL, "I SUPPOSE" THAT EVEN "THE WORLD ITSELF" WOULD NOT CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT WOULD BE WRITTEN!!!"
3 years only, that was the time which Jesus spent preaching and teaching and doing his miracles, but if someone like John start writing the books the world will not contain them!!!, but we know for sure and we can support that by facts, that since the writing started, and from that time until now, even with the billions of people writng every day for many thousands of years still the world can contain those books.

Even this gospel called John gospel, but I don't know if he was one of Jesus disciples or not, but i know that he wrote stories told by the others.
"That disciple would not lie" 21:23.... & 21:24 "This is the disciple who is testifying to these things AND WROTE THIS THINGS*, and WE KNOW THAT HIS TETIMONY IS TRUE".
* John wrote from what he read, from the one who WROTE THIS THINGS, and he accepted his testimony as true, and you are and the many others accepting the stories of John wich came from someone you do not know as true!!!, while it cannot be accepted logically by anyone who seek the truth, and nothing but the truth.
I wonder who is this disciple that "HE" would not lie, and "HIS" testimony accepted without any question asked.

God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 04/12/07 19:51

A: Perceptions,
the future can not be predicted and known even by God. God writes all the possible paths before it happens, as it is in a computer programming. He waits peoples reaction, and Creates. There are exceptions to this rule anytime He wishes. As He is Omnipotent. We see it in Paroah & Moses 9 miracles, Jesus and his opponents, Lot and people Noah and people and finaly Mohammad and Mecca people.
If the future is well known by God why did He bother to create the universe?Why He sent prophets to guide with books? He try us, warn us, send case studies, we are all tested in due course.
In the future no Jesus will come again. Although christians and half of muslims believe so, it is not written anywhere except sceptical hadith books for muslims. Why should he come? What is the odds to convert everyone in second descend, as he couldnt convince 100 % of the living people in his first coming?
The universe will collapse within itself at the time God wish so. Untill then take care.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/13/07 1:28

A: Study the new covenant or the Qu'ran [if that is your preference] by itself objectively without any input or references from other books or stories, you must eliminate or ignore any and all old or new covenant verses borrowed, mentioned, rewritten or written as a proof and determine if it can stand on its own merit [ In order to understand, one must strip the veil or screen, to see its true nature]. It is not easy to do, but you will learn and understand certain issues that you never thought existed and you will obtain further insight into what you really believe or thought you believed. Answers will pop out at you over the course of this kind of exercise. No, Roy this is not a dawah for another belief!

Name: roy • Date: 04/13/07 10:01

A: Shlomo wrote:
"Study the new covenant or the Qu'ran [if that is your preference] by itself objectively without any input or references from other books or stories, you must eliminate or ignore any and all old or new covenant verses borrowed, mentioned, rewritten or written as a proof and determine if it can stand on its own merit "

Roy Wrote:
I am positive for all what you say above. I apply this idea to Quran. I have no clue how to differ the real Bible from the addition parts in it. If you know a way to eliminate I wil be reading New testament more objectively.
I read bible and found many common things in religions, so much that hadith producers has copied those fairy tales from bible and put them in their books as if ohammad told them. Some are against Quran.Example: David has lured the neighbors wife after explicit story described.

My effort is for understand the truth to b eable to pray God in a better way. The artificial dawahs are of no interest to me.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/13/07 11:53

A: Sam: You say that as a Christian, I must support my beliefs by the words of Jesus. A record of his words are in the bible. I believe the entire bible is inspired by God and anything contained therein is reliable. I must rely on the bible writers to faithfully record Jesus' words, and do not think that God would allow any error to stand, including their own testimony.

It seems illogical to me that we would trust in the accuracy of the bible writers when recording Jesus' own words, but mistrust them when it comes to recording their own eyewitness accounts.

I do not believe in a triune God (a trinity). It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word.

John 1:1----------
"and the word was a god" - The New Testament, in An Improved Version
"and the Logos was a god" - The Monotessaron
"and a god was the Word" - The Emphatic Diaglott
"and the Word was divine" - The Bible - An American Translation
"and the Word was a god" - New World Translation
"and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" - Das Evangelium nach Johannes

Jesus himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life many times. (John 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58)

Proverbs 8:22, 23 - "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth."

Proverbs 8:30, 31 - "then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

John (of the gospel) was indeed one of Jesus' disciples, and an eyewitness to the things he wrote about.

I hope this answers your post, Sam.

CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/13/07 12:18

A: Canuckchic,

You quoted this: "Further showing that Christ leads the heavenly forces is the statement that the earthly forces "battle with the Lamb (who is Jesus Christ -Joh 1:29 - but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and fatihful with him will do so." (Rev 17:13, 14)
---------------------------------------

- God and Jesus , they do not battle with earthly forces, and if God the almighty He is really a God, then He can change things without going into battle with the people on earth.
- Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Lord and King of the King (Jupiter is the God of Gods for the Romans), and the Popes are the king of this world and the holiest men on earth, and the saints (popes, bishops and others) will judge the Angels of heaven (the Angels of Gog)!!!.
BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN. M23:9 - Jesus is the servant of God.
Why do you call good? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE. MR 10:18 - By the word of Jesus GOD ALONE IS GOOD.
---------------------------------------

Also,- those called and chosen and fatihful with him will do so." (Rev 17:13, 14)

THE CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL!!!, WHO ARE THEY?
and they will conquer ? , conquer whom?, do they or did they first conquer the evil that within them, go check the history please.
- From the time of Jesus until this day April 13 2007, there are more war and conquerors and more killings and burnings among Jesus followers than any other religion on this earth, and even more than the atheist!!!.

CONQUER, "Jesus, King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them!!!."
Jesus came to teach the people of this earth "LOVE" & "PEACE", and not WARS AND CONQUER. Jesus came to remind the people (the believer in God) about the commandment of God, those which came direct to the prophet Moses. and I am going to bring some here to remind you and the others who forget them:
- YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. (the one and only God).
- YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL.....
- YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD YOUR GOD IN VAIN.... (The christians claim a lot of thing to God, even war and conquer)
- YOU SHALL NOT MUDER. And they do kill and burn people by the millions!!!.
- YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTRY. (I think you heard about the adultry which took place in the houses of God, and if not I can bring you all the news. and not to forget you intertainment, TV'S and CLUBS etc. all run by the, those called and chosen and fatihfu)
- YOU SHALL NOT STEAL. (I read that the churches in Europe are full with gold stolen from the Americas, and even they use it for the statues of Jesus and Mary and the saints !!!, can anyone deny this fact?)

You should wake up and see the truth, because you are blinded by the faith wich you created and it is not the real Christianity that came from the teaching of Jesus. You live in a mirage.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/13/07 12:26

A: Sam: Not all Christians (followers of Christ) identify themselves as being part of Christendom.

Christendom will have much to answer for (atrocities detailed in your post) on the last day.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/13/07 20:29

A: Roy, here is an example hopefully to give you some idea of what I am referring to in the exercise: Pauls contention of a proof text:

I Cor.2:6-8 "no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived, what G_d has prepared for those who love him."

The original verse is from Isaiah 64:3 "never has the ear heard or the eye seen a G_d beside you, who works for the one who waits for him."

You see Paul was eager to boost his doctrine, this is why one must eliminate biased references and sayings to obtain the true meaning to see if a verse like this can stand on its own, even the entire book of the new covenant or Qu'ran. Pauls verse does not stand on its own, it has been plagerized and altered.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/13/07 20:47

A: Roy, let me clarify further. How any people know there were two Bet-Lechems in Israel during this period of Jesus? There was a Bet-Lechem of Zebullun, 7 miles west of Nazareth and there was a Bet-Lechem over 60 miles to the south in Judea. Which one would fit prophecy? Which one was the real one this person Jesus came from? Which one with all propability would stand on its own without prophecy reference from the old covenant?

Name: roy • Date: 04/14/07 10:05

A: Shlomo,
Many thanks for comments. I am not familiar with biblical studies that much. The main concern for me , I want to know which verses are more likely of God word, which have less likelihood being genuine.
It is crucial if all of us can make the difference. It would have been milestone of christianity and muslims if any other early age bibles have been found and croschecked.
If you have any ideas which parts are added, tell me so I concentrate on them. We muslims believe in Christ was given holy book.

Name: sam • Date: 04/14/07 20:34

A: Canuckchick,

"I believe the entire bible is inspired by God and anything contained therein is reliable."
--------------------------------
Retired- Bishop John S. Spong wrote:
- "The BIBLE full of CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS"..."The GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE".
If the Bible and the Gospels were inspired by God, then they suppose to be perfect and tells the truth about everything. The story of the six days creation is completely wrong, and the sories Of Noah and the flood cannot be accepted logically, and the stories of Abraham and his descendent, are stories of people with their differences, God Has nothing to do with their inheritance and their family problems.
The story of M-4:1-11, about Jesus and the devil, is wrong, it was not mentioned by Jesus, but it is the creation of the people. This story, that tells us that the devil took Jesus to show Him the kingdoms of the world etc., makes the devil knows more than Jesus (your God), and that cannot be accepted by anyone who believe in the Holy Spirit, the almighty.

"I must rely on the bible writers to faithfully record Jesus' words, and do not think that God would allow any error to stand, including their own testimony. "
-----------------------------------
The writers of the books, recorded Jesus activities and His miracles and His words faithfully, and all that represents the truth, the word of Jesus came to Him from God, and they are protected (J-12:49), BUT, when they added their own works, and their own stories which comes from their own imaginations, and write things which cannot be accepted logically that is what makes the books full with errors and cannot be trusted as the Bishop said.
And saying, "God would "not" allow any error to stand". For God sake how do you know what God allow or not allow?, even Jesus Himself does not know about the thing that God knows, (But of that day and hour no one knows NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, NOR THE SON (JESUS), BUT THE FATHER (GOD) ALONE. M-12:37, You people always say things about God as you been with Him, and even you know what He think too!!!!.

It seems illogical to me that we would trust in the accuracy of the bible writers when recording Jesus' own words, but mistrust them when it comes to recording their own eyewitness accounts.
------------------------------
LOGIC LOGIC, please,
Recording Jesus OWN WORDS, and recording HIS MOVEMENTS, and recording HIS MIRACLES, done by many people who heard from Him and witnessed by many of his followers including His disciples, for that we can trust these records.
BUT it does not mean to trust everyone else, there is big difference between what Jesus said and what the others said, specially when something sais about Him while there was no other witnesses.
Again we look at the story of the DEVIL. M4:1-11, and my questions are:
1- In the forty days which Jesus spent in the wilderness, was He accompanied by anyone or He was alone?.
2- Did the devil take anyone else beside Jesus, when he "TOOK HIM...LET HIM STAND ON THE PINNACLE OF THE TEMPLE" ?,(here it clearly say "took Him" and that prove they were alone.
3- Again, in the next trip it say "TOOK HIM TO A VERY HIGH MOUNTAIN", were they alone?, and if not who was with them?.
4- You said, (A)- " when it comes to recording their own eyewitness accounts." & (B)- " writers when recording Jesus' own words".
My question about (A), Is it true that Matthew and Luke were with Jesus for forty day in the wilderness, and then joined them in the long adventure and WITNESSED everything and heard the conversation to write it word by word?.
And as for (B), you think it is the same when the WRITERS writes Jesus words and acts while He is among them, and they can see and hear in real time, as writing things about Him while there was NO WITNESS?
5- If you know that there was an "EYEWITNESS" TO RECORD THIS STORY. Please support your answer by names.

I do not believe in a triune God (a trinity).
-------------------------------------
The former catholic Nun who changed to protestant wrote in her book (it is on her site "Mary Ann Collins".
"I BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY...I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORK".
My question: "You do not believe in the trinity because of the same reason?, while there are billions of christians who believe in it, and they can prove this formula to you and to me and to all the others by quoting from the bible and the gospels even they use the words of the Emperor Constantene , even they use the words of Paul, and for sure he wasn't a trinitarian, because he believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that is what he preached in Damascus and for the first time after Jesus death, and many do not agree with him because they know that Jesus is the promissed prophet.

"It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word."
------------------------------------------
APPEA-R- that do not bring a fact, either He or He is not.
If the trinity is hard to undersatand, what you made up here is hard to understand too. Can you explain it please, and can you bring something to prove that from Jesus words ONLY.
No one knows the truth about Jesus except Jesus Himself and the God who sent Him.

God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 04/15/07 7:10

A: Answer well done, sam.
I wonder if you have any evidence which parts of bible is trustworthy as Quran? Do you know the sections names . I am and billions of muslims interested in reading bible, and act accordingly if they are sure that it is word of God revealed to Jesus.
As you know Muslim has faith in Bible as well as Quran.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/15/07 18:08

A: Sam: Surely you jest. If I want to know about the bible, the LAST person I'm going to look to for information is an Episcopal Bishop...or ANY bishop, for that matter.

Again, I "borrow" heavily from the book, "Insight on the Scriptures"

Re Six Days of Creation:
The bible does not specify the length of each of the creative periods. That a day can be longer than 24 hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks of ALL the creative periods as one "day". Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." (2Pe 3:8) Ascribing not just 24 hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the evidence found in the earth itself.

Re The Flood: Since you place great trust in Jesus' own words, see Matthew 24:37-39 "For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of Man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."
See also Luke 17:26, 27 "Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all."

Re Abraham and his descendants: You state that "God Has nothing to do with their inheritance and their family problems". As revealed in the Old Testament, Abraham received communications from God by means of visions and dreams, and entertained his angelic messengers. Look up Ge 12:1-3, 7; 15:1-8, 12-21; 18:1-15; 22:11, 12, 15-18. Indeed, God formed a covenant with Abraham, to be passed on the Abraham's posterity through Isaac (Ge 26:2-4) and Jacob (Gen 28:13-15; 35:11,12).

See also Hebrews 6:13-15 "For when God made his promise to Abraham, since he could not swear by anyone greater, he swore by himself, saying: ""Assuredly in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply you. And thus after Abraham had shown patience, he obtained this promise.""
Also Hebrews 11:17-19 "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son, although it had been said to him: ""What will be called """your seed""" will be through Isaac. But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way."

Re the account in Matthew 4:1-11: I don't see anything in this account to indicate that the devil knew more than Jesus. It shows me that since "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory" were the devil's to give, they must, in fact, belong to him.

Also, Jesus is not my God, but rather, his father Jehovah is.

This post is getting over-long and I'll do my best to answer the rest of your post later.

CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/15/07 21:19

A: Roy,

Thanks. Befeore answering your post I would like to explain few things.

THE "TRUTH". Is a great word, but it can be misused, for ex. two parties are claiming it (the truth) while they have differences. So, the most important question is, "how can we separate the "TRUE" from the "FALSE"?.
To do that,
(A) One has to stand in a neutral position,otherwise he will be chosing and accepting what he believe in before knowing the fact. (the blind beleivers)
(B) One has to use the right TOOLS to separate the true from the false, and they are " LOGIC", "REASONING" , "SCIENCES", "COMMON SENSE" etc., because the truth can be "COVERED" and "MANIPULATED".
(C) One should understand that the truth will prevail at the end, because "THE TRUTH NEVER DIES".

Roy, We all know that in the court of law there is a judge and two+ lawyers and the jury, and we know that the judge and jury should be neutral while listening to the defending lawers, whom they try to bring THEIR TRUTH for the case,and THE TRUTH CAN BE ONLY ONE, but a good lawer can win a case even if it was false. WHY?, the answer to that comes from the fact that in the law school and in the first years the lawyers has to study "LOGIC, PHILOSOPHY, PSYCHOLOGY, STATISTICS etc." and one lawyer can be better in defending his case using these tools mixtures, and if he can use those tools properly for sure he will win. There are many good Physicists, but there is only one EINSTEIN *.
I brought this to show you that in some cases even a neutral judge and jury can be manipulated by a good lawer, but even if that happen the truth will surface again in the future and in time.
The theories of Einstein and his words which are written in books became as a BIBLE to many scientists, and it was studied and taught, and hardly any one dare to question it, because it is Einstein word, (it was the truth for some time), but after time came Mr. Hubble with his famous SCIENTIFIC discoveries, "THE BIG BANG" and "THE EXPANDING UNIVERSE" etc., and Einstein scientific bible lost part of its glory, when faced by new facts, and if Einstein was great in bringing his work, he was a greater man when he ADMITED that he was wrong, by saying: "It was my biggest BLUNDER" and after he visited Mr. Hubble. Admiting ones mistake or wrong is a virtue, many know it but only few admitted.

Roy, you asked me:
"I wonder if you have any evidence which parts of bible is trustworthy as Quran?"
------------------------
First, let us understand the books.
-------------------------------
A- The Bible as you know is a set of many books, The containt are:
* 1- scientific work (the creation-in Genesis), that what they call it, but today facts tell us that these information are wrong, but the believer they do not want to admitted and still insist that it is the word of God!!!.
2- stories, those are mixed stuff, the false is mixed with the truth, and a knowgable person can separate them. (I will some the finding later on ).
3- Laws, those came to the prophets, in different time, and they represent the truth.
B- The Gospels, as the Bible there are many books, they chose some end the burn the rest !!!. They claim that their fathers chose the right one, but who knows now? they might chose what they prefer, and that was wrong, and it is a sort hinding the truth, and keep what agree with Paul's formula and his teaching, and that is clear by his own words:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Gal1:8
So, the personal letters of Paul to his friends added to the gospels to become part of the hily book !!!.
Reading the different gospels one could find many differences and some words changed to go with the teaching of Paul: here an Example:
John 9:35 The new testament .............."THE SON OF MAN"
John 9:35 The bible (catholic online)........"THE SON OF GOD"
They are changing the words of Jesus !!!, and that is a forgery, and there are many. The stories of the forgeries in Rome are well known.
Also the gospels contains stories and myths which cannot be accepted logically, but people in the 21st century still believe in them as the word of God, here one:
Mark16:9 "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, OUT OF WHOM HE HAD CAST SEVEN DEVIL ."
Seven devils !!!. Did anyone see the devil ?, Jesus did not tell this story, so who did?.
After all, I can say,even changing some words of Jesus, that does not effect on His message, and the message in total represent the truth and it is clear , and the honest people who seek the truth will find it, that is if they do not use Paul's and the others words.

After what I explained before, I will say "THE LAWS AND THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE BIBLE ARE THE MESSAGES FROM GOD AND SHOULD BE BELIEVED AND RESPECTED.
And "THE WORDS OF JESUS AND HIS COMMANDMENTS IN THE GOSPELS SHOULD BE BELIEVED AND RESPECTED, HIS WORDS CAME FROM GOD.
As we believe in the Prophet Muhammad, we should believe in Moses and Jesus and the other prophets that been mentioned in the Quran.

Do you know the sections names . I am and billions of muslims interested in reading bible, and act accordingly if they are sure that it is word of God revealed to Jesus.
------------------------------
In my next post to you I will bring some of the words of Jesus, which I believe that they should be accepted by the Muslims as the holy book (one Gospel).

As you know Muslim has faith in Bible as well as Quran.
-------------------------------
The words of Jesus only hold the whole truth, so we should them as we accept the words in the Quran, and we should have faith in both of them.

God bless you.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/16/07 1:35

A: Sam,

It is apparent that you did not use logic or reason to the full extent when is comes to the topic of Bereshit [ Genesis]. There is more science inbeded in Genesis than you realize and it does coincide with present day scientific age of the universe. In the beginning was the word? What word? What is your example for the second mitzvah of your ten mitzvot?

Name: roy • Date: 04/16/07 9:03

A: Sam
Thanks for explanations. I look forward to your other posts.

Canuckchick,
You say "Also, Jesus is not my God, but rather, his father Jehovah is."

What is this nonsence of believing in father-son, who is grandson ? us ? who is mother – virgin marry? who is bride? Amry Magdalene? wher do they dwell? israel north america?
Why son is not here any more, he must be eternal, but he is not alive now, wher is he, or where the mother of him? Only father of him alive?
If you put everything in a human formation, there will be too much absurdity to fight with.
Why Father God is in shape of human but not in shape of more finest shape of a flower, or as indians believe a cow?
What is your difference than indians and moses time jews if you believe God is in shape of human?

I put down Quranic verses against your assumption, if you give İslam benefit of the doubt, you win.

4:171 Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son.

2:116 And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.

10: 68- They say, Allah hath begotten a son glory be to him he is Self-Sufficient his are all things in the heavens and on earth no warrant have ye for this say ye about Allah what ye know not?

19: 35- It is not befitting To (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to him! when he determines a matter, He only says To it, be, and it is.

21:26 And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but (those whom they call sons) are honoured slaves;

23:91 Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with Him; else would each God have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.

37:159 Glorified be Allah from that which they attribute (unto Him)

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 10:49

A: To Sam: (continued)

Re Bible inspiration: The apostle Paul stated at 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is inspired of God."

The apostle Pater says of bible prophecy: "You know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." (2Peter 1:20,21) The evidence shows that God's spirit operated on the minds and hearts of all the Bible writers to carry them along to the goal purposed by God. Jesus himself attested to the fact that David had written Psalms 110 under the direction of "holy spirit". See Matthew 22:43 and Mark 12:36 for Jesus' own words.

Re your statement "even Jesus Himself does not know about the thing that God knows, (But of that day and hour no one knows NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, NOR THE SON (JESUS), BUT THE FATHER (GOD) ALONE". Again, this shows that Jesus is not part of a trinity, but separate and less powerful than God. I don't believe that the bible supports the notion of a trinity. The scripture that puts the final nail in the trinity coffin is 1Corinthians 15:28 - "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

I don't pretend to know God's mind or how he thinks, other than how he has chosen to reveal himself through the scriptures.

Re: "It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word."
-------------------------------------------
APPEA-R-- that do not bring a fact, either He or He is not.
If the trinity is hard to undersatand, what you made up here is hard to understand too. Can you explain it please, and can you bring something to prove that from Jesus words ONLY.

Jesus' words:

John 3:13 - " Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."

John 6:38, 62 - "because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me".
"What, therefore, if you should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?"
John 8:23, 42, 58 -
"So he went on to say to them: ""You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world."""
"Jesus said to them: ""If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth."""
"Jesus said to them: ""Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."""

The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. Other texts identify Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation, "the beginning of the creation by God". (Col 1:15; Rev 1:1; 3:14) Thus the scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God's first creation, his firstborn Son.

Logically, it was to his firstborn Son that Jehovah said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." (Gen 1:26)

Peace,
CC

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 11:17

A: Roy, my flower...how goes it?

The source of your confusion re Father, Son, Bride, etc. is probably the teaching of the "trinity" by many of the churches in Christendom.

By my read, the bible teaches no such thing.

Take care,
CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/16/07 15:30

A: Canuckchick,

You said:
- "Sam: Not all Christians (followers of Christ) identify themselves as being part of Christendom."
--------------------------------------- "Catholic", "Protestant", "Angelican", "Orthodox", "Mormon", " etc., Here are some of the churches, and all of them believe in the trinity, so,can you tell me who is the real christian among them?, and as a christian yourself which one you follow?.

- "Sam: Surely you jest. If I want to know about the bible, the LAST person I'm going to look to for information is an Episcopal Bishop...or ANY bishop, for that matter."
---------------------------------
The information that the Bishop Spong brought are true and any one who is not blinded by his faith can come to the same findings, and he is not the only one who spoke the truth, the Bishop did not fabricate things, because it is clearly there, and telling the truth, is far much better than hiden it.

- "I do not believe in a triune God (a trinity). It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word."
-------------------------------------------------
Mary- Ann ( catholic then protestan NUN), said: “I believe in the trinity.
- There is only one God.
- But there is the father, the son (Jesus), and the holy spirit.
- Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man.”
As we understand from that, that the father and the holy spirit are not the same person.
The trinity formula has three persons "the father, the son, and the holy spirit, but they are one God, So when you do not believe in the trinity, that means you eliminate one or two persons from this formula.
Since we cannot eliminate the Holy Spirit (GOD), then there is only two left , the son and the father, (that is if the father is not the holy spirit as in the trinity formula) and since we cannot eliminate the father because he is the one who created the son, then I wonder what formula you have in mind, but if you believe in Jesus as the GOD and you try to prove that by Jesus' words:

John 3:13 - " Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."
----------------------------------------------------------
-*- THE SON OF MAN, Not God or part of God. (If He ascended into or descended from heaven it is by the will of God His creator, and not by His own will. "I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY INITIATIVE. J5:30", and the next verses from John prove it too

John 6:38, 62 - "because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but THE WILL OF HIM THAT HE SENT ME".
-------------------------------------------------------
NO-T- MY WILL (I hope you understand what it says here!)
BUT THE WILL OF HIM (GOD) THAT HE SENT ME. God sent Him and He cannot do anything without God permition, (I hope you understand Jesus message here, HE SENT ME !)

And when you said: "Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word." as if you are saying Jesus is God, and that is wrong, because Jesus said:
"But from now on THE SON OF MAN will be SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD." L 22:69
If Jesus is God then He should sit on His throne and not on the right hand of God.

"And He (JESUS) went a little beyound them, and FELL ON HIS FACE AND PRAYED (if Jesus is God then He should not fell on His face and pray to God!!!), Saying (Jesus saying), "My Father (MY GOD), if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; (Jesus asking God) YET NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS YOU WILL. M 26:39 (no one say this and be a God at the same time.)
- Some Christians may laugh or joke about the Muslim way, when they kneel down in their prayers, FORGETTING that Jesus pray in this way too, and so the other prophets before Him.
The Angels of God carry the God's messages to his chosen people (prophets & the chosen ones), they ascend and descend from heaven by the will of God only, and the Bible gave us many examples:
"And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur." Ge 16:7
And in the Quran:
"The angels and the spirit will ascend to HIM during a day the extent of which is fifty thousand years." Q- 70:4
The ascending and descending of Jesus are the same as the Angels and the spirit, as it came in the Bible and in the Gospels or in the Quran, They all came and gone as the will of God and not by their own will.

God bless you

Name: roy • Date: 04/16/07 16:33

A: Szia CC, szeretőm
You said earlier the missionaries Jehovah Wittness answer all of your questions from their book. Can you ask them please. What was the situation of former prophets? Were they step-son to God, as you claim real son is only one? How were the sinning versus atonement problems being solved before 0 B.C.?
Why God need to get a son to himself while He empowered himself to create all human being, plantations, animals, stars, time, emotional world, soul, spririt shortly anything we may not even imagine? Is that different than trinity if God has a son ( little god) ? I thing worse than trinity leads to endless plurality. What if the little god has actually got other children- many decended grandson gods living among us?
If you believe no other prophets but only Jesus (son , God forbid never!) how do you comment on Adam, who was sent to earth fatherless? Do you not also believe in Adam sent to earth by God? I see you believe in Jesus was created before Adam.

CC wrote:
Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation, "the beginning of the creation by God". (Col 1:15; Rev 1:1; 3:14) Thus the scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God's first creation, his firstborn Son. Logically, it was to his firstborn Son that Jehovah said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." (Gen 1:26)

Roy wrote:
All creation formula has been pegged to Jesus. No one else was God's beloved slave but Jesus? You find logic in that? (Logically, it was to his firstborn Son) It reminds me the same story told by radical muslims, who claim Mohammad (sas) was the most beloved human of all of the world history. All universe was created by God for the sake and love of Mohammad. All prophets woud have been praying obeying to privilaged Mohammed in resurrection day. ( do you hear the similarities with Jesus ?) Many muslim professors deny these false fairy tales. They dont find any firm proof to say these privilaged position of Mohammad is true. The danger was to love the created slave of God too much. The result is putting him/her to the position of equality to God. Not only Jesus was worshiped beside God today but also wealth, political power, beloved spouse or parent, even car, football team or job has been replaced by God in many modern living people heart.

19:88-95 They say: (God) Most Gracious has begotten a son! Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth To split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son for (God) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (God) Most Gracious that he should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (God) Most Gracious as a servant. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly. And everyone of them Will come to him singly on the day of Judgment.

Some art sites from hungarians are more refreshing than these conversation. I am drowned in the imaginary theories of creation of CC.
Please take away – hyphens.
http://www.wga.hu/index1.html
Hungarian Painter of tomb of Jesus
http://dsc.discovery.com/conve-rgence/tomb/land/land.html

No- hard feelings please. Te vagy a szerelmem

Name: betty47 • Date: 04/16/07 20:57

A: Let me put my spin on it. Let's say Jesus does come again. He was Jewish. He never intended to start Christianity and neither did James or his other family members who were all good Jews. Early Christians converted to Judaism first before they could follow Jesus. St. Paul changed all that, and he didn't even know Jesus. Perhaps Jesu would come back and say that everyone who started Christianity was wrong. Jews have been told for centuries that if they don't believe in Jesus they would go to hell. I'm a Catholic, but perhaps we've been wrong. Who knows what Jesus would say? Would he say we were wrong to start the Trinity and that we believe in idols which he hated? Maybe it would be modern Christians who would be sent to hell and Jews would live with Jesus in bliss in heaven? Surely Jesus would not send his own people to hell. But if he comes back and thinks Christianity is paganism and filled with idol believers, maybe he'd be furious at Christians and the Vatican. Just a thought.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 23:23

A: Hi Sam! I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses have got it right. They are the only ones I know of who are able to back up their teachings with bible scripture.

Re Bishops: Most have an axe to grind, and some are even (gasp!) politically motivated. I don't trust them, as a group, to be responsible spiritual guides.

Re the trinity teaching: I think you're preaching to the choir here. I do not believe the bible supports this teaching. Jesus is NOT God. God is the supreme being, Jesus is God's first creation and subordinate to his father, Jehovah (God). The holy spirit is not a personage, but God's active force.

By the way, I am not one of those who laugh at or mock the Muslim way.
I have great respect for people who attempt to live their lives according to their beliefs.

Isn't this message board great? I haven't had this much fun since the pigs ate my brother!

CC

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/16/07 23:29

A: Here is a question;

What insults HaShem [ G_D] the most? Do not jump for the answer, think clearly and logically with reason before answering. This is a very important question beneath the surface of the question itself.

Hint: it is in the old testament [Torah].

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 23:44

A: Betty - Your post reminds me of a joke I once heard.....

A Jewish rabbi dies and goes to heaven. Meets St. Peter at the pearly gates. St. Pete gives him the guided tour.

They go down a long hallway with many doors on either side. He opens the first door marked "Protestants". They poke their heads in and say hi to everyone. Second door is marked "Muslims". Again they greet those inside. Third door marked "Quakers". They say hi.

Next door is farther down. St. Pete tells rabbi they must take their shoes off and quietly tiptoe past. Rabbi asks why. St. Pete says: that's the Catholic's door, and they like to think they're the only ones up here.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 23:46

A: Roy, my precious: I'm not ignoring you, but your post warrants more research than I can manage right now.

Goodnight, sweet prince.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 23:49

A: Shlomo: I'll bite. What's the answer. Then we can argue about it.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/17/07 2:25

A: Canuckchick,

Search and obtain the answer, this is not a question of debate. It is a question given to obtain certain truths that are absolute, contrary to those who believe there are no absolute or static truths.

Name: roy • Date: 04/17/07 6:32

A: betty47,
It is exactly what you wrote down. Jesus will be furious with vatican and whomever produced lies about him. A catolic may be unbiased and admirable, thanks for comment.
Shlomo wrote,
What insults HaShem [ G_D] the most?

Roy wrote:
I bet it is idolatry. He got offended by being worshiped of Him besides other deity.

CanuckChick,
Your posts has great value and fun. I dont expect you find answers for my opening arguments. You can not. I dont want you indulge into your book and come with satisfactory results. It may become nightmare for you.
So leave it to time, your common sense may prevail one day.
na ezt jól megcsináltad!

Name: sam • Date: 04/17/07 20:49

A: Hi CanuckChick,

You stated: "I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses have got it right. They are the only ones I know of who are able to back up their teachings with bible scripture. "
--------------------------------
Since I do not know much about the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses, I would like if you clear these few points:
1- Are they a sect from the Christian or the Jews?.
2- Do they believe in the Bible and in the four Gospels?.
3- Do they accept the name "Allah" as a God?.
4- "Jehovah's Witnesses have got it right"!!!.
A- Are they the only one right and all the others are wrong, can you prove it ?, because "got it right" does not prove a thing.
B- Do you think that the "ISLAM" religion and teaching are wrong?.
C- Did you ever think, and just for curiosity to read the Quran?, and if not, can you tell me what are afraid of?. (at the end of this post I am bringing few verses as an example)*.
D- In John 16:7-15, Jesus mentioned this, "But I tell you THE TRUTH, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU,...." , and the question, where is the Helper ?, did He come or not yet, according to your belief?.

The five pillar of Islam: "(1) TO BELIEVE IN GOD (ONE GOD), (2) TO BELIEVE IN HIS ANGELS, (3) AND IN ALL HIS MESSAGES, (4) AND IN ALL HIS MESSENGERS (ALL THE PROPHETS), (5) AND IN THE JUDGMENT DAY.

* Verses from the Quran:
Q-29:20 (O MUHAMMAD), say to them“go travel through the earth and observe HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.
Q- 41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. (He is the truth). But is it not sufficient concerning your LORD that he is, over all things, a witness.
Q-22:73 O people, an example is presented so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke beside GOD will never create (as much as) a fly, even if they gathered together for it (i.e., that purpose). And if the fly should steal from them a tiny things, they could not recover it from him. WEAK ARE THE PURSUER AND PURSUED.
Q-21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM, and made from water every living things, then will they not believe?.
The "BIG BANG THEORY".

Q-51:47 And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER.

-Is that the EXPANDING UNIVERSE theory?
Q-21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all heavenly bodies, in an orbit are swimming.

-Every object in the universe is moving, the moon orbiting the earth, and both orbiting the sun, and all of them orbiting our galaxy, and our galaxy orbiting what?, GOD knows.

Q-13:41 Have they not seen that we set upon THE EARTH REDUCING IT FROM IT IS BORDER?.

-The earth diameter on the equator is 12756 km. And its diameter in the poles is less by few hundreds of kilometer.

Q-27:88 And you see THE MOUNTAINS, thinking them RIGID (STATIONARY), while they are passing as passing of clouds.

-The earth rotation around its axis is 1666 km/hr, but we do not feel it, and the mountains seems to be standing still, and only in the late centuries the scientist discover those facts about the moving earth.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/18/07 9:10

A: Hi Sam!

Re Jehovah's Witnesses: The modern-day history of Jehovah's Witnesses began with the forming of a group for bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania in the early 1870's. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah's Witnesses. Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity.

Beliefs:
1) Bible: Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the entire bible is the inspired Word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, they hold to the bible as the standard for all their beliefs.

2) God: They worship Jehovah as the only true God and freely speak to others about him and his loving purposes toward mankind.

3) Jesus Christ: They believe, not that Jesus Christ is part of a trinity, but that, as the bible says, he is the Son of God, the first of God's creations; that he had a prehuman existence and that his life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a vigin, Mary; that his perfect human life laid down in sacrifice makes possible salvation to eternal life for those who exercise faith; that Christ is actively ruling as King, with God-given authority over all the earth since 1914.

4) God's Kingdom: They believe that God's Kingdom is the only hope for mankind; that it is a real government; that it will soon destroy the present wicked system of things, including all human governments, and that it will produce a new system in which righteousness will prevail.

5) Heavenly life: They believe that 144,000 spirit-anointed Christians will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, ruling as kings with him. They do not believe that heaven is the reward for everyone who is "good".

6) The earth: They believe that God's original purpose for the earth will be fulfilled; that the earth will be completely populated by worshipers of Jehovah and that these will be able to enjoy eternal life in human perfection; that even the dead will be raised to an opportunity to share in these blessings.

7) Death: They believe that the dead are conscious of absolutely nothing; that they are experiencing neither pain nor pleasure in some spirit realm; that they do not exist except in God' memory, so hope for their future life lies in a resurrection from the dead.

8) Last days: They believe that we are living now, since 1914, in the last days of this wicked system of things; that some who saw the events of 1914 will also see the complete destruction of the present wicked world; that lovers of righteousness will survive into a cleansed earth.

9) Separate from the world: They earnestly endeavor to be no part of the world, as Jesus said would be true of his followers. They show genuine Christian love for their neighbours, but they do not share in the politics or the wars of any nation. They provide for the material needs of their families but shun the world's avid pursuit of material things and personal fame and its excessive indulgence in pleasure.

10) Apply bible counsel: They believe that it is important to apply the counsel of God's Word in everyday life now. Regardless of a person's past way of life, he may become one of Jehovah's Witnesses if he abandons practices condemned by God's Word and apply its godly counsel. But if anyone thereafter makes a practice of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, drug abuse, drunkenness, lying, or stealing, he will be expelled from the organization.

I believe that any organization purporting to have God's blessing should display the fruits of God's spirit.

"Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.

By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.

Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

Not everyone saying to me, ""Lord, Lord"", will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

Many will say to me in that day, ""Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?""

And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you. Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:15-23)

Name: roy • Date: 04/20/07 17:32

A: CC, schatzi
You make your efforts in vain to prove us your faith is only valid one and the rest is non acceptable by God~Jehovah. I think we muslims has a small chance according to Jehova's Wittness as we also believe Jesus pbuh is sent by God. What about protestants, catholics, jews, budists?

What illogical is; Jesus atonement for human sins was necessary to reach to eternal life for mankind and erode Adam's fault, ultimately paving way to everlasting life. Why unlucky Jesus should take the burden of falsehood of Adam and all mankind? Why not the sinful Adam and mankind suffer for their own debauchery?

Muslims on the contrary believe that Adam was as valuable as Jesus. Adam has erred, seduced by evil who offered forbidden tree to reach everlasting life. He was excused. It seems to show asimetry in beliefs.

The blood transfusions has hit me worst. You refuse blood during surgery or giving birth? Mortality in women; the death rate in this group was 1 per 1,000 maternities compared with an expected incidence of less than 1 per 100,000 maternities. I dont mention unprotected and naive children and patient cases. Come on to your senses please; if something is against wisdom, conscience, logic, continuation of human life, then simply cease to follow it. Any religion against common sense, science may not sustain for a long time, no matter what it promises.

CC, how did you gave up celebrating your birthdays, and christmas? What is unethical about them?

It is open to much criticism when you put hierarchy to religion; Jesus is king, Elders and Ministerial servants, you are cutting the direct relationship of human to God. Who are the secretary of State, foreign affairs?

1870s, Russell organized a Bible study group, such a coincidence Jesus has come and lived among us since 1873, sorry a delay in departure! 1874 , sorry unforeseen technical unease! a further delay due to gathering of saints in heaven 1878, and finaly his plane landed on 1914? The start of most blodiest era of all human history, just start of first world war 1914-18.Ottomans lost everything during that including 10 million human. Where was his reign during 1939-45 ? 52 million died and 3 times more wounded. Till 2914 he will be around ? May God protect us from Jesus! A perfect heaven like earth life for humans continues now!, in Iraq alone close to 1 million people was dead in 4 years. How can you believe in such absurdity. When I write even I get suffocated from mindless thesis.

Armageddon is imminent? I only remember a beautiful actris from that movie with same name. Why ever blody war is imminent, any clue or reason? Who are the wicked that will be destroyed? Can you tell by description? Are you suspicious with your neighbours that they may be possible wicked instead of living them? Come again to your senses.

Name for God, translated as Jehovah in English, as vital for acceptable worship? We use more than 100 names for God in worship and prayers, we are not heard at all? God is not answering when you call Him beautiful names of any language?

And you also believe same as catholics; all other religions are false and not acceptable by God.

It is also taught that 144,000 people will receive immortal life in heaven like-earth with Jesus Christ as co-rulers guiding the rest of humankind? What can I do to be one of them? Why it is 144 not 154,000? How can you differ them from others? I am exasperated.

Do you serve at for field service too? I mean door to door. How can you stand the questions like mine? Or prefer to feel guilty?

You believe that God's original purpose for the earth will be fulfilled; that the earth will be completely populated by worshipers of Jehovah and that these will be able to enjoy eternal life in human perfection? Some sect of muslims stole and share exactly same ideas with you. They expect the saviour Jesus from heavens. Although in Quran says Mohammad was the last prophet. These are muslims too, or rather Jehova's muslims. This part strike me most ; "even the dead will be raised to an opportunity to share in these blessings." Will you raise from grave too? Is this Jesus or God? Is it Jesus arrival or doomsday? Russel totaly messed up everything.

Coincidentally the last verses are used as argument that Bible gave clues for Prophet Mohammad (sas).

A nice canuckchick Nelly Furtado - Baby Girl may heal my wounds that you caused in my soul tonight, she is like a free bird too.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/21/07 9:36

A: Roy, my Schatz:

I can only speak from the things I have learned from the bible, as to which people are acceptable to God. I believe that any religion blessed by God would have to follow God's laws, and this would be reflected in the lifestyle of the ones adhering to that religion.

In other words, what is the end result of people following a certain religion? Unfortunately, most of the religions I know of have a dismal record of following God's laws.

One example: Most religions preach love and peace, but when it comes to the crunch, they support war, and in the name of nationalism will gladly march off to kill their fellow man. Jehovah's Witnesses do not take part in war, and continue to be humiliated and imprisoned because of their stand.

"Unlucky Jesus"? He was not forced to come to the earth to atone for Adam's sin. He volunteered, because he loved mankind. Adam and his descendants were clearly meant to live forever on the earth. The only condition was that they accept God's authority to decide what is right and wrong. Adam was tempted into an act of rebellion against God when he ate from the one tree that God had told him to leave alone. He warned him of the consequences: "And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ""From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, FOR IN THE DAY YOU EAT FROM IT YOU WILL POSITIVELY DIE." (Gen 2:16, 17)

When Adam chose to decide for himself what is right and wrong, he was no longer a perfect human, and so could not pass on this perfection to his children. We all know that thousands of years of misery have ensued. Don't we still have this attitude today? We want to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, without regard for God's laws.

God created the universe. He instituted laws to ensure it's continued existence. Example: gravity on earth. Another law: sin=death. Since the universe is perfectly designed, he chooses to follow the laws he put into place. He couldn't say to Adam, Ok I didn't really mean it when I said you'd die if you sinned. The only way around it was to provide another "Adam" (a perfect human), who would prove that it was possible for humans to live on earth and remain faithful to God. Enter Jesus, who did just that.

Re blood: The bible tells us clearly in the Old AND New Testaments that the blood in our bodies does not belong to us, but rather to God.
Gen 9:3,4 - Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soul - its blood - you must not eat." (to Noah)
Lev 17:10 - "As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people." (to the Israelites)
Acts 15:28,29 - "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!" (to the early Christian congregation)

God does not withhold good things from us. Statistics (as we're certainly aware of on this website) can be manipulated. Is it possible that we have been brainwashed by the medical community to believe that blood transfusions are good for us? They make a tidy little profit on this procedure.

There are alternative treatments. Often simple saline solution, Ringer's solution, and dextran can be used as plasme volume expanders, and these are available in nearly all modern hospitals. The risks that go with use of blood transfusions are avoided by using these substances. These risks are heavily downplayed by the medical community - bacterial or viral infection (AIDS being one), transfusion reactions and Rh sensitization.

All types of surgery can be performed successfully without blood transfusions, including open-heart operations, brain surgery, amputation of limbs, and total removal of cancerous organs.

There are people who risk their lives for their country, and they are viewed as heroes, aren't they? But there is someone who is greater than any person or thing here on earth, and that is God. Would you risk your life because of love for him and loyalty to his rulership? The issue here really is loyalty to God. The same issued faced by Adam.

Re birthdays: The date of your birth has traditionally been used to cast your horoscope, or foretell your future.
Deut 18:10-12: "There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

For this reason, the early Christians did not celebrate the day of their birth.

Re Christmas: Look into the history of this celebration and you'll find that its roots are of pagan origin. Most bible scholars will also tell you that the date does not reflect the time of Jesus' birth, since he was born some time in October.

Re elders and ministerial servants: They do not act as "priests" in the congregation, or an intermediary between the people and God. This arrangement is modelled on the early Christian congregation. They are learned in the teachings of the bible and do not claim to profess an understanding of God that is not readily available to anyone.

Roy, most people, including myself don't like reading overly-long posts, so I'll try to answer the rest of your questions another time.

Time to go out in the sunshine, play with my dog, and do a little gardening.

As we say here in Canada - "Keep your stick on the ice!".

Your friend,
CC

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/21/07 22:42

A: Original sin is not the truth...........no child is born in sin, that is pure nonsense. Chava sinned by allowing her ego [ left side ] convince her that since she was made also in the tzelem [image] she has a right to to eat from the tree, in fact all the trees. She then convinced Adam's ego of her flawed logic and reasoning, resulting in Adam being convinced and they both suffered the consequences. A human scrafice is an absolute abhorence to G-d, no man can assume someone elses sins, all are responsible for their own.

Name: roy • Date: 04/22/07 7:09

A: CC, kedvesem!

I am not here to convince you or anybody that your belief is not truth. I strive for the truth and as you might have noticed I criticise heavily to muslims falsehood and bigotry more strongly than others. They cover up the most correct path of God's message, and encumber to İslam. Their fault is bigger than others as they cant be examples of true faith, being away from attarctive to all nations.

Well, lets start with your post.
CC wrote:
Most religions preach love and peace, but when it comes to the crunch, they support war, and in the name of nationalism will gladly march off to kill their fellow man.

Roy Wrote:
It is in the essence of the mankind to fight and kill. Unfortunately this is part of test that we were given as resposibility from heaven before creation. Angels had objections to God that : " Will you place therein such as will cause disorder in it or shed blood ?"

"And He taught Adam the names of all things; then presenting them to the angels, He said: Tell Me the names of these if you are right." (2: 31)

The angels did not know their names and said:

"Glory be to You. We have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Surely, You are Knowing, the Wise." (2: 32)

After that Allah questioned Adam in the presence of all angels about the names of different objects. He gave correct answers on the basis of this superiority. Allah asked all the angels to bow as a mark of respect to Adam who was created so miraculously. The Holy Qur'an affirms:
" angels! Fall down making obeisance to Adam" (15:29)

This is what we believe about mankind superiority over angels. Dont wory too much about the wars, my opinion is; they are part of instruments God uses to terminate some people from earth although they are His supporters and lovers it doesnt make change for Him. It is all in His governence to lenghten earthly life or shorthen it. Most important for Him through wars is; tests people to qualify the ones who are loyal and faithful to Him from others. He wants no wars, and says not kill or shed blood, it is another test of obedience.

About "Unlucky Jesus"; I dont believe in atonement of any creature and I agree with Sholomo saying;
"Original sin is not the truth...........no child is born in sin, that is pure nonsense."

You may further research at ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve

My opinion lays under " islamic tradition" of that page.

Your assumption below is wrong:
"The only way around it was to provide another "Adam" (a perfect human), who would prove that it was possible for humans to live on earth and remain faithful to God. Enter Jesus, who did just that."

The only resemblance of Adam, Jesus was the type of creation~ from no father.
Adam was sin prone as well as Jesus and Mohammad (sas). No one has been created perfect untill now. Not even angels, evil was an angel. Only God is perfect.
I dont expect and believe any peaceful era will come under anybodys rule on earth. There will be always nonbelievers to get the correct conditions of the test. The unjust against the previously living people would have been immense, if otherwise. We believe most of the paradise earners will be from earlier nations not from the latter.

Re blood: we have some of the asthonishingly similar verses from Quran about the blood. I think that parts of bible has not been manupulated as they are kept original and can be verified by Quran.

Regarding statistics and alternative medical treatments you are most likely biased. I dont think any doctor or scientist would have deliberately conceal the truth from people in order to prove Jehova's Witness sect redundant or make more money rather than save lives.

I can undertand the feeling of risk your life for God, but God wants it for more correct reasons, if the life of human is endangered He wants us to survive at any cost. The unlucky patients and pregnants are to die as martyr to their belief. May God accept them, I am respectful. However I dont beleive it is wish of God.

Our prophet Mohammad has been donoring blood from time to time.

BIBLE:
Gen 9:3,4 - Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soul - its blood - you must not eat." (to Noah)
Lev 17:10 - "As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people." (to the Israelites)
Acts 15:28,29 - "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!" (to the early Christian congregation)

QURAN:
005:003
Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and BLOOD, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled animal and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up for idols and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

2:173
HE has made unlawful to you only that which dies of itself, and BLOOD and the flesh of swine, and that on which the name of any other than ALLAH has been invoked. But he who is driven by necessity, being neither disobedient nor exceeding the limit, it shall be no sin for him. Surely, ALLAH is most Forgiving, Merciful.

6:145
Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or BLOOD poured forth, or flesh of swine -- for that surely is unclean -- or that which is a transgression, other than (the name of) Allah having been invoked on it; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

16:115
He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and BLOOD and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

CC Wrote:
Re birthdays & Christmas: "The date of your birth has traditionally been used to cast your horoscope, or foretell your future."

You are right again on this matter. I agree with you and point out same mistake committed by many less-religious people all around the world. The stars which were believed made up the horoscopes do not stay where they were before.

Muslims does not care that much for their birthday, however they are not against celebrating it. They dont combine the celebration with horoscopes and fortune telling most of the time. On the other hand daily newspapers and magazines have fortune telling pages. But you are correct at this matter.
Our muslim brothers are trying to set up a Mohammad week of birthday nowadays.

watch out the verses below:
5:3
Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal ……and that which has been slaughtered at an altar as an offering to idols. And forbidden is also this that you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That is an act of disobedience. ….

5:90
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.

I am glad what I learn for status of elders and ministerial servants, it is same understanding for us too.

The above written was szerény véleményem szerint.

tiszteletem barátnőm

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/23/07 10:54

A: Hi Roy, my little freebird! continued....

After discussing the destruction due to come upon the city of Jerusalem, Jesus made the statement: "And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations (times of the Gentiles) are fulfilled". (Lu 21:24)

Prophecies in 2 Kings and Daniel 4 point to the passing of 2,520 years from the time of Jerusalem's destruction by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 BCE.
This takes us to 1914 (do the math - remember there is no year 0)

At the end of the "appointed time of the nations", Jesus would begin his kingdom rule in heaven.

In 1914, at the beginning of Jesus' kingdom rule, he cleansed the heavens as depicted in Rev 12:7-10: "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angel battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ""Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!"""

We see the consequences of this heavenly war, here on earth: "On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

Many people will agree that conditions on the earth have noticeably detiorated since 1914, the start of the first world war.

Might this be due to Satan's banishment to the earth?

Re Armageddon and the destruction of the wicked: I do not presume to know which individuals will be destroyed. I know that, unlike humans, God is able to read the heart, and that his judgements will be fair.

Re Jesus' co-rulers: Revelation 14:1 gives us their number - "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads."

Rev 14:4c goes on to identify them: "These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,"

Rev 7:9, 10 tells us that there will be other survivors: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to numbe