Q: Did jesus have a wife..i am kinda new with this whole christianity thing so i was just wondering if jesus had a wife?
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/06/08 20:25
A: Hathan Jillson
for now it is pure speculation. But the odds of him having a wife are getting higher.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/07/08 11:58
A: Nathan jillson,
If you would like to read a novel BASED on the gospel of Mary Magdelene then I highly recommend THE EXPECTED ONE by Kathleen McGowan.You will get your answer and many others from the author's 25 years of research.Enjoy reading the book.I liked it better than the DaVinci Code. Even though it is not as fast paced as Dan Brown's novel Kathleen McGowan's book covers other angles and explains more about Mary Magdelene and her personal life with Jesus.
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/07/08 12:12
A: Panluna
Thank you , I will look for that book. It would appear that this web site was abandoned by those who worked on this project. But I still have my own personal experiences and they are not explainable. I have way to many for me personally to ignore.
What I wrote about the Mirror has meaning to me, under Ka. The reason is , it happened to me. I am not talking about sex, I am saying I looked at the other person and saw Me, as if in a mirror.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/07/08 16:15
A: Judith - what you say about Ka and the mirror, reminded me of this saying of Jesus' from Gospel of Thomas:
"He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/07/08 16:37
A: Judith,
I don't think they abandoned this project more like they moved on to do other things.If you have any questions after reading every facts scroll down to the contact us at the bottom of the page.
There is still a real big controversy going on but I personally feel based on the facts and evidence presented that this is the real tomb of Jesus and his family and I learned a great deal about rational thinking and dealing with arguements for and against the truth revealed that was hidden by historical half-truths based on the churches' s power struggles.
It does not diiminish the importance of faith.Having faith based on believing the truthful facts is more important than believing a lie.And Reality is Truth's greatest ally.
Name:sam_torrance1990 •
Date: 09/11/08 10:45
A: Jesus did not have a wife. Look out for Living Hope's documentary on the talpiot tomb. It is coming soon! [www.lhvm.org]
Name:sam •
Date: 09/11/08 20:41
A: Was Jesus married?. Of cource HE was married. Jesus was born a Jew , and died as a Jew, and maybe He was a rabbi, and according to the traditios at His time men should marry at young age, and Jesus had to follow the tradition.
THE SPREAD OF LIES THROUGHOUT THE CHRISTIAN HISTORY.
IN THE BIGINNING.
PAUL CAME WITH BIG LIE.....HIS VISION !!!.......WHY?
Everyone knows who was PAUL, and when & where he saw his vision.
Jesus never met this fellow, and Jesus wasn't there to stop him from bringing lies about HIM and everything else.
Paul brought a LOT of good talks in his many letters to his friends to COVER UP the things which he was after, the thing which was his main purpose to achieve.
1 cor 9:23 I [PAUL] do all things for the sake of the gospel, SO I [PAUL] MAY BECOME A FELLOW PARTAKER OF IT.
PAUL invented the the SON OF GOD formula.
Jesus said: "WHEN YOU LIFT UP THE SON OF MAN ...THE SON OF MAN.... THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM HE ."
Jesus said.... I AM THE SON OF MAN 89 times in the 4 gospels, and Jesus is not a liar, but Paul is.
PAUL and his followers run the churches from the biginning, and lies were created from the biginning, and the gospels are full of lies which were created by people whom all their work is done to bring in more people and the church to grow, the never respected THE TRUTH OR THE LOGIC.
They wrote that Jesus was lifted to heaven and sat on the right hand of God.....is that a big lie?
and they wrote that all the stars from heaven will fall on the earth and then Jesus will come on the clouds....is that onther big lie, and there are many .
Retired bishop John S. Spong wrote:
"THE GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE."
Do you think that the old and knowledgeable bishop doesn't know the facts, and why he should lie ?.
Then , THE TRINITY FORMULA CAME, 380 years after Jesus death , and after Paul's FORMULA OF THE "SON OF GOD" !!!!.
Did anyone ever asked himself this question: why Paul miss the trinity things, and he was the only person to visit the third heaven, and see and talk with Jesus?, so that a Roman Emperor and a bunch of bishops to discover the truth about Jesus?.
WHY the churches and their followers use MORE of the words of Paul, as if Jesus words has not much value in them?
The spread of lies started with Paul and kept going and growing until this day. We all know the history of the churches and the bishops and the popes, and their hard work to cover the truth and to keep their followers in line by the word "EXCOMMUNICTE" & "IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US THEN YOU ARE AGAINST US AND WE WILL FIGHT YOU...",
THE CHRISTIAN FEAR THE CHURCHES, SO THEY CONNOT BE FREE TO TALK THEIR OWN THINKING !!!,
YOU CAN SEE THAT CLEAR IN THE US PRESIDENTIAL ELLECTION.
In the 21 st century, and the people who talk about the freedom are not free to speak their on mine not even those who are on the top , then what about the the ordinary poor people?.
God bless you all.
I wonder
Name:Judith •
Date: 09/15/08 15:20
A: Hello all
Dear Sam
In the New Testament it does say that Paul's Teacher told his students to leave the Christians alone. He knew of Jesus and so did his students. Paul admitted he was behind the death of many Christians and If I remember right he stated that he held the cloaks of the Roman Solders who stone Steven and James to death. That means Paul may have given the orders to do so, at the very least he did participate by holding cloaks.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/17/08 21:23
A: Dear Judith, Hello
I wonder.... those are my last words in the previous post, and always I keep wondering HOW can so many people follow a religion called [Christianity] while they all know the truth about it is dented history from the time of Paul until this day !.
PAUL'S LIES BEEN ACCEPTED AND PUT IN THE GOSPELS AS THE WORDS OF GOD....BURNING THE BOOKS [ MANY OTHER GOSPELS] AND THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP THEM... CREATING CHURCHES AS PALACES FOR THE POPES, BISHOPS, CARDINAL INSTEAD OF PLACES TO WORSHIPS GOG ONLY.
I think many people in this age, the age when all the truth are available to most of them showing the truth about all the bad things that occurs in that shameful history of this religion and they keep following it blindely, I can compare them to the political parties of today.
It does not matter how bad was last 8 years of the repablicans their followers will not change and the same for the other parties. it is not about how it is good for the people but all about how it is good for the party only.
I wonder..... HOW can people be so silly and stupid when they shose between the party and the country and then they stand for the party ignoring the country which is suppose to be the fist thing that matter for the people, and it is the same for the Christian religion, they chose the churches instead of choosing God and His Messengers and the welfare of all the human on the planet !!!.
I wonder.... How a retire bishop write that the bible is full of contradictions and errors, and the gospels cannot be truste to be reliable, and he for sure knows the full history of the churches keep those books and preach the message of Paul and the churches to the blinded christians, can we call that is a wrong things and a siily things etc., and there are many who are attached to christianity and have the same knowledge about it as the bishop !!! ?.
God bless you Judith.
Name:Judith •
Date: 09/18/08 1:28
A: Dear Sam
It is not just Christianity that abuses many if not all have done the very same as Christianity. I am not sure Jesus actually had a Church, but said every individual should become a church. That is more of an Eastern Philosophy.
All Religions have been guilty of the same .
Then , THE TRINITY FORMULA CAME, 380 years after Jesus death , and after Paul's FORMULA OF THE "SON OF GOD" !!!!.
Nope it was a much more Ancient Philosophy and Christianity borrowed it. There is and was a practice that is not welcomed by most religions because it would take to much time and most have to work for a living. In those respects, people would prefer to demonize that practice to hide the fact that they can't do it. All the Spiritual Gifts Paul gave and tried to explain are in the Chakra System and also defined in the Tibetian Book of Living and Dying, and may also be in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and may also be in the Akasic Records.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/18/08 14:02
A: Dear Judith, HI.
You said: "All Religions have been guilty of the same ."
All religions....???.
Christi-anity......Jewdaism.....Isla-m- - These are the religions.
Christians.....-.....Jews............Muslim-s- - Those are the people who claim that they follow the religions. They are religious but not the religion.
Many times on this forums and on the N.G. forums, I explained the differences between those terms the 'RELIGION' & the "RELIGIOUS'.
I wonder .... how people, even the well educated ones do not know the differences between these terms, and they throw their judgments on the religion while the fault came from the religious , the people!!!.
RELIGION, Is the TEACHING that been brought by someone who claim that he is carying a message as Moses , Jesus , Muhammad etc., and the teachings were WRITTEN/ recorded in BOOK/BOOKS as Torah , Gospels , Quran etc.,
RELIGIOUS, are the PEOPLE who claim that they follow the TEACHING / THE BOOKS, but if we look closely we will find that the people are following their own interpretation to what came in the book/books.
FIRST, we should not claim the gilt of the people on the book/books, the religion.
SECOND, we should analyze the book/books in a logical and scientific way, to come to the truth, since we have many of them, to find out which of them give us true information supported by examples on things that we do not know before that time {as the creation}, that because as the religious people believe in them as they are the words of GOD, and God will not tells lies or give wrong informations.
THIRD, anyone who claims that he find the truth by looking at his book only is a short sited one, all the books that came to represent teaching to worship God and been written long time ago should studied and analized, then people will find which one hold the truth.
If we do that, instead fo fighting and hating each other IN THE NAME OF THE BOOK/ THE RELIGION, then maybe we will be able to understand each other teachings, and apreciate the books that came to each us LOVE AND PEACE.
God bless you.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/19/08 12:42
A: There is no reality except the one contained within us. This is why so many people live such an unreal life. They take the images outside them for reality and never allow the world within to assert itself.
[Hermann Hesse]
Let go of hundreds of years
and relax completely
Open your hands and walk, innocent
Thousands of words
myriad interpretations
are only to free you from obstructions
If you want to know the undying person in the hut
don't separate from this skin bag here and now
[Shitou]
Under the trees
among the rocks
a thatched hut
Verses and sacred commentaries
live there together
I'll burn the books
I carry in my bag
but how can I forget
the verses written in my gut?
[Ikkyu]
Be soft in your practice
Think of the method as a
fine silvery stream
not a raging waterfall
Follow the stream
have faith in its course
It will go its own way
meandering here
trickling there
It will find the grooves
the cracks
the crevices
Just follow it
never let it out of your sight
It will take you.
[Sheng-yen]
In original nature
There is no this or that
The Great Round Mirror
Has no likes or dislikes
[Seung Sahn]
Great Doubt
Most of the work with a koan takes place alone
while sitting zazen, because in reality there's
nothing anyone can give us. There's nothing that
we lack. Each one of us is perfect and complete,
lacking nothing. That's why it is said that there
are no Zen teachers and nothing to teach. But this
truth must be realized by each one of us. Great
faith, great doubt, and great determination are
three essentials for that realization. It is a
boundless faith in oneself and in the ability to
realize oneself and make oneself free, and a deep
and penetrating doubt which asks: Who am I? What
is life? What is truth? What is God? What is
reality? This great faith and great doubt are in
dynamic tension with each other, and work to
provide the real cutting edge of koan
practice...when also accompanied by great
determination.. we have at our disposal the power
necessary to break through our delusive way of
thinking and realize the full potential of our
lives.
[John Daido Loori]
If you want to perceive and understand objectively, just don't allow yourself to be confused by people. Detach from whatever you find inside or outside yourself and only then will you attain liberation. When you are not entangled in things, you pass through freely to autonomy.
[Zen Master Lin-chi]
I'd like to
Offer something
To help you;
But in the Zen School,
We don't have a single thing!
[Zen Master Ikkyu]
Name:Judith •
Date: 09/19/08 16:46
A: Hello Sam and Thank you so much Sassy
Sam, I have read what is called Holy Books and Prayed as I did it. I have seen with in all where God commands the death of other Tribes. Now, you may think that is Holy , but that is just one more interpretation. I see how in the Book of Abraham , he married and called his wife, his sister when in a bind. Wasn't he called a Prophet, and was Noah really in a flood and missing a whole year in his age just after that Flood, Yes , I did read them and when Jesus said "Before Abraham, I am" he didn't say before Adam "I am" and could well have meant . Before Abraham , I stood, and that would more than likely be King of Salem , Melcheizdeck. Many want so much to keep these primitive Books and make them adjust to their own system of things , and guess what "We are in the 21st century and those laws , have to be put into effect the correct way for our time. How and who determines that , well many of those are maladjusted , so I just keep my faith, in between my ears where I say my prayers ( my closet) .
There is no way I can claim Saint Hood but I can say for a fact that when I got on my knees and said " Jesus , there are to many Religions, To many factions in the Same Religions, to many opinions, so You teach me." Not long after I had a Blue light flash in my mind and that ball of light floated over our neighborhood and I could see from it . It gave me a stange feeling of Pitty and Compassion, and I know know that is called the Shechina or Shekina . No, I am not so good , I just wanted to hear truth for a change.
Name:Holly •
Date: 09/21/08 20:25
A: Of course not he was the holy one he was here for one purpose to give us a chance to salvation only through him we are able to enter in heaven. He didn;t have to follow no ones tradition and get married like a another person wrote here thats nonsense . Please always remember that dont disbelief in our holy bible (the word of GOD). Theses doubts in jesus all come from the evil one who puts doubt in our hearts.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/21/08 21:17
A: Hello, Judith,
This is a quote from your post:
" Many want so much to keep these primitive Books and make them adjust to their own system of things , and guess what "We are in the 21st century and those laws , have to be put into effect the correct way for our time. How and who determines that ....."
"THESE PRIMITIVE BOOKS . {And you ment the 'Bible, Gospels and the Quran...and I will add to them the Hindu & the Buddhist books, because those are accepted by millions as great books too !?"
MY QUESTION TO YOU, What makes the books PRIMITIVE?.
As for me, I do see that a book any book been written hundreds of years ago, is good [advanced] or primitive IS by the information and the stories and the laws which brought within, since a book is no mor than informations and stories and laws brought to us mostly by the people of the dark ages when wknowledge were very limited and PRIMITIVE, and you should not forget that their world was small and the earth is center of their world and it is a flat peace of land and they believe that the star will fall on the earth and still there will be cloud for Jesus to ride and come to earth and the people will survive all that !, and they do believe that God came to earth, which is the only place He got , and God came to walk with Abraham !.
Now we know the truth and the facts that the earth is much smaller than a grain of sand when compared to the universe OUR WORLD TODAY.
And Saying that earth was created before the sun and the moon and the stars and plant and some form of life came before the creation of the son. those examples shows us that the books which brings such informations are for sure primitive books, and no doubt about it.
The ONLY BOOK which gave us true information about our earth and the creation , and many other scientific information which wasn't known to man before hundreds of years ago is the QURAN, and that makes the Quran an advanced book and not a primitive book , so please do not mix all the books in one pot together ,and undrestand what you are reading. It is not about Christanity or Islam , it is about the truth and the false, and we cannot switch the truth. The Quran was written and recorded in a book which never changed in the last 1400 years. there is only ONE QURAN, but there are so many different gospels, and their words and stories been changed during the years, and of course you can see that in the last few years when NAG HAMADE brought to life what was hidden for centuries, and the finding of the tomb of Jesus is another example, both which broght evidence that the stories in the gospels cannot be trusted to be true.
With every new discoveries the churches and the Christians try to "make them adjust to their own system of things" and that is clear from the way they change things so that they keep the primitive thinking accepted to the mass by bringing philosophical empty ideas to prove they are right.
The Quran never changed and no need to adjust anything in it.
Here some of the information that came with the Quran before 1400 years ago:
65:12 IT IS GOD WHO CREATED SEVEN HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH, LIKE OF THEM.
---- Judith , please go to NASA & the Hubble scope sites and see for yourself how many planets been discovered in the last few years, and about the billion of stars in our galaxy, and the billions of galaxies in our world , our universe. as for the gospels and the Bible there is only the earth, the sun ,the moon, and countless of small lighting objects they call them stars [those the ones been mentioned in the bible & the gospels]. here what the gospel tells us:
Mark 13:25/26 And THE STARS WILL BE FALLING FROM HEAVEN, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. THEN they will see THE SON OF MAN [JESUS] COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
WOW, that was a great story, of that what will happen in the future, after many thousands of years. I do not blame Mark for writing such an atractive story, since he thought that the stars so small lighting object in the sky, but I do think that those who believe today and in this time when the truth are known about our universe, and accept those as the words of God , has problems in differentiates between the truth and the false, and has no knowledge about the term LOGIC.
38:88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION * AFTER TIME.
---- AFTER TIME the truth start to come to us, as it was mentioned 1400 years ago.
29:20 0 MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM, “GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.”
---None of the other holy books asked the people to look for the truth about God creation, but on the contrary, they punished who dare, we remember GALILEO.
---- Also, that is what makes the Quran an advanced book, because the other book were so primitive that they bring false information and not allow people to think or advance in knowledge. Judith, if that is not right , please bring to me what prove otherwise.
21:30 HAVE THOSE WHO DISBELIEVED NOT CONSIDERED THAT THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATE THEM.
{The BIG BANG theory}
51:47 AND THE HEAVEN WE CONSTRUCTED WITH STRENGTH AND INDEED WE ARE ITS EXPANDER.
{the expanding universe theory}
21:33 AND IT IS HE WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE DAY AND THE SUN AND THE MOON; ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING.
{Thanks to NASA & the Hubble who show us the truth, the truth of what the Quran came with - AFTER TIME}
27:88 AND YOU SEE THE MOUNTAINS, THINKING THEM STATIONARY, WHILE THEY ARE PASSING AS PASSING OF CLOUDS.
{the earth is rotating around its axis in high speed, and so is the mountains, but such information were not known to people of that era.}
Q-21:32 And we made the sky a PROTECTED CEILING, but they, from its signs are turning away.
{we know this fact today}
29:43 AND THESE EXAMPLES WE REPRESENT TO THE PEOPLE, BUT NONE WILL UNDERSTAND THEM EXCEPT THOSE OF KNOWLEDGE.
{That is true}
41:53 WE WILL SHOW THEM OUR SIGNS IN THE HORIZONS AND WITHIN THEMSELVES UNTIL IT BECOMES CLEAR TO THEM THAT IT IS THE TRUTH, BUT IT IS NOT SUFFICIENT CONCERNING YOUR LORD THAT HE IS, OVER ALL THINGS, A WITNESS?.
I WONDER, how people accept the false which came in the other primitive books and do not accept the truth which came in the Quran, and accepting the words of the pope and bishops and not accepting the word of God !!!.
There are many other examples which cover a lot of subjests, people should read and analyze any book before giving their wrong opinion about it.
Here are two verses, and they are not the words of man.
40:57 The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the peole do not know.
36:81-83 Is not HE who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the likes of them ? Yes, [it is so]; and HE is the knowing creator. HIS command is only when HE intends a thing that He says to it "BE" and it is. So exalted is HE in whose hand is the realm of all things, and to HIM you will be returned.
Judith, I hope that you will agrre that those words are the words which show us the power of God over all his creation. I don not see any primitive thing in what it brought to us. I do believe in God and HIS power and I hope that you do.
Dear Judith, if you like I will bring to you many other scientific examples, which came in the book which you claim it as a primitive book.
God bless you.
Name:Judith •
Date: 09/22/08 6:02
A: hello again Sam
I have not read the whole QURAN but those chapters I did read, are the same or almost the same as the Bible which is much older. By saying Primitive , I am saying you can not see the eye contact, the hand gesture, or know how the words were used, no I don't agree , sorry Sam . I do however agree that the Hindu Books are also Primitive and the same applies , you can't know that generations gestures, and meanings of all that is there. I also agree that the Dark ages did much damage to all written materials, but that is still being done today, and not just by Christians. They are not the only ones who are changing.
The stars will be falling from heaven? There has always been falling stars and that may well mean something else more mystical, again there is no knowing what was actually being said. Stars could well mean Enlightened Ones, as it appears in the Book of Revelations. Most are saying the same thing in their own way, due to the cultural differences, and or lack of expression.
And for the Seven Heavens, yes there are Planets spoken of in the Bible, and constellations also. Again there is no way to know each cultures ancient way of expression..
Bless You Also Sam
Name:Judith •
Date: 09/22/08 14:56
A: Dear Sam
I might add, that I read up to the birth and life of Ismeal and Issac, and it was there that I decided it was a dispute between half brothers . I put it down there. I have nothing to gain from family fueds
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/23/08 0:51
A: The Quran is just as primitive and un-scientific as any other of the so-called 'holy' books. Creationism in whatever religion is NOT science; it's based on faith and fantasy, on myth, not facts.
from "Letter of Debate: Religion vs. Modern Science.":
"there is no sura in Quran that depicts that the earth moves round the sun. On the contrary, everywhere in the Quran we find the fixed picture of earth [see Fatir (35:41), An-Naml (27:61), Luqman (31:10), Al-Baqara (2:22), An-Nahl (16:15) etc.] There is no sura or any kind of indication in Quran that supports the common fact that earth moves or rotates. And it is not unusual. The time when Quran revealed was a very primitive age, and people at that age could not visualize the movement of earth. That's
why we do not find any sura containing the movement of earth in Quran.
It is not true only for Quran, rather this picture is very true for any kind of primitive religious books.
In many places in Quran it alludes to the fact that earth is flat and mountains are like poles, which create a balance so that earth does not tilt. In chapter 88:17,20 it is recorded.... "Will they not regard the camels how they are created...... and earth how it spread?" So that in page 509, the Jalalan says, "In this phrase 'how it spread', he denotes that earth is flat. All the scholars of Islam agree upon this. It is NOT round as the physicists claim.
History also shows that in the twelfth-century Arabian scientist Ibn al-Haitham asserted that the earth was spherical, not flat. But His work was castigated as heretical and his books were burned, as it does not support Quran. In 1993, the supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, issued an edict, or fatwa, declaring that the world is flat. Anyone of the round persuasion does not believe in God and should be punished.
Due to all of the erroneous verses stated in Bible, Quran and other religious books…. even in this progressive 20th century, some people dogmatically believe that our earth is NOT round, but flat. They have formed International Flat Earth Society (http://www.flat-earth.org/).
Let’s again come to the “scientific claims” of Quran. I have found that Quran has many primitive and erroneous thoughts and concepts about many things. In many verses of Quran, Allah described sky as a canopy (2: 22) and it is Allah who holds the sky upon our head by unseen pillars. But now we know from our modern scientific knowledge that Sky has no physical entity it’s just the ultimate limit of human eyesight. -which was not known by ancient people of Quranic age. Allah definitely is not ignorant; He is omniscient and omnipotent.
Still, Why does Allah need an unseen pillar to prevent the sky (which has no physical entity) from falling upon people's head? Doesn’t it eventually conclude the fact that the book contains only primitive, immature and unscientific thoughts of Arab?
If we read Quran critically, we will find that there is no scientific miracle at
all. On the other hand, the book is full of errors, ancient/primitive beliefs,
scientific misconceptions and contradictions. Yet we always find some religious scholar arguing that Quran talks about Big Bang, Nebula, Human cloning...all advanced 20th century scientific knowledge.
I generally answer the argument just mentioning again that Quran is not
supernatural. It is the clever interpreters who always try to give a different
meaning in it. And it is only after something happens that the interpreters
create a loud noise. In fact, there is no sura in Quran which depicts Big-Bang or other 20th century scientific theory---it is just some clever interpreters who by force try to relate some suras with Big-Bang and Nebula to misguide common people. Lets have an example.
[al-Anbiya' 21:30] Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, ....
Some Muslim interpreters tries to relate this sura with Big-Bang. But does it really depict any fact about Big-bang at all? Lets look the next verses to understand the Quranic image ...
[al-Anbiya' 21:30] ... the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them…,
Pikthall [al-Anbiya' 21:31] And We have placed in the earth firm hills
[mountains] lest it quake with them, ...
Pikthall [al-Anbiya' 21:32] And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them)..
.
Shakir [ar-Ra`d 13:2] Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see ...
It establishes a very primitive image on the relationship between the heavens and earth. After Allah raise up the heavens on unseen pillars, and put down the earth, he put the mountains on the earth to not quake,
(like putting a heavy thing on a piece of paper not to fly?)! Allah make the sky a roof withheld to not fall on people head?! How he do so? By putting the heavens on unseen pillars!! Is it supported really by 20th century modern scientific knowledge?!
There is nothing at all in this verse that can relate with Big-bang. If the
verse really relate with Big Bang, then where is the explosion? This verse does not show any kind of explosion at all. So how can it be related with Big Bang?
I will request the believers to think logically, rather than trying to (by force) believe that "Everything stated in Quran is wholly scientific and miraculous". I see many frivolous attempts by so called religious scientists to link planetary nebulae with Quranic verses ("When the sky is torn apart, so it was like a red rose, like oinment"---Ar Rahaman).
This is undoubtedly a flawed attempt that is often made by apologetics of all other religion, some more than others. Just to illustrate, still there are many unanswered questions relating to universe. For example (~Quote from an article of Aparthib Zaman), we don’t know at this time whether the universe is closed, open or flat. That's why no religious scholar dares to make any prediction based on any revelation now.
But if the answer is ever found out by science (say, by the attempt of non-muslim scientist Stephen Hawkings for example), I am sure some Muslim scholars will evidently dig out some vague verses from Quran and will claim "see --- Quran mentioned this scientific truth almost 1400 years ago! See how miraculous our book is!".
The resemblances are always found AFTER the fact has been occurred,
never been found BEFORE the scientific discovery.
Some Islamists are really desperate nowadays to prove Muhammad a Biologist, Embryologist, Cosmologist, Chemist and theologist.....while it is quite true that being a citizen of a very primitive age, he (Muhammad) had a lacking of basic reasoning of science. I wish to put here one of the example. The ancient people at that age had a severe problem to solve --"where does Sun exactly stay at night !!!". Let’s quote from Hadith about Muhammad’s thought regarding this - "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne of Allah and takes the permission to rise again" [Volume 4 Number 421]. How can those
Islamists defend those words of Muhammad? Does sun really stay underneath the throne of Allah at night? Is this a scientific fact?
Muhammad also showed his ignorance about the scientific facts behind solar eclipses by expressing-"Eclipses of the Sun are the signs from God to frighten Believers" [Volume 2 Number 167]. While Muhammad failed to guess the basic scientific facts behind those natural events, how it is generally claimed that he knew (or predicted) about Big Bang, Nebula, and Gene Technology?
It is not only the Muslim religious scientist, but also the Christian and Hindu scientists dogmatically claim for scientific authenticity for their own religious scriptures respectively.
..In conclusion I must add that early man did not have the knowledge and security, which we can command now. Similarly the future generations who will know more about the conditions in other planets and constellations and perhaps will develop scientific knowledge so as to control age and death, will know more than what we do now. That’s why it is absurd to think that the religious books, which were basically
written by ancient people, are free from any errors and it is more than absurd to think that those books revealed Big bang, Nebula, Relativity, Black hole and other modern scientific knowledge.
When we keep our mind thus open, we find today that the concept of god also arose in response to the needs of curiosity to know the nature of things and events around, to have a moral order and also to the need to express aesthetic cravings. But we have to comprehend that god beliefs no doubt have a negative effect on our today's rational life since they are bolstered through faith instead of evidence. We see faith as being the same as gullibility since both words mean "Acceptance Without Evidence."
Gullibility (or faith) makes it easy for dishonest people to fool us, or rule us. This is how all prophets and god-messengers fooled and ruled common people in past time by using gullibility. Those Religious scientists like Dr. Maurice Bucaille, Dr. Shamsher Ali, Dr. Mrinal Dasgupta adopting the same technique of using gullibility even in this
progressive age. They even try to prove that there is a scientific miracle even in some cruel practices such as Kurbaani, Patha-boli, Hila marriage or Shatidaha (widow burning).
Skepticism and doubt actually can prevent a lot of avoidable misery. The history of religion (with its foundation built on faith), is a history of intolerance and violence.
The most pleasant moments of human history no doubt, have been during times when religious control and influence were in decline."
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/23/08 1:00
A: From "The Dominist manifesto":
"Only one God, only one way: once one makes that choice, so many other choices become dictated, commanded, preordained. For the real fanatics—the suicide bombers and cross-wielding crusaders—all free will, conscience, and personal morals get subjugated to this dangerous logic of monotheism. Only my God, only my way: monotheists apply the Parable of the Tribes to the religious impulse by forcing everyone they encounter to either fight (thus betraying the peace and good will of one's religion); to flee (thus abandoning the holy earth from which most non-monotheistic religions derive); or to convert (thus becoming righteous
recruits in God the Dominator's army).
Monotheism functions as the fundamental of all fundamentalisms. From the rigid belief in God the Dominator flows an equally rigid adherence to his teachings as revealed in specific writings. While in truth a great deal of editing and all too personal selection goes into which of a body of writings actually represents God's word and, of those writings, exactly how to interpret his meanings in present terms, fundamentalists have no use for such distinctions. They glorify the supposed perfection of the world as God intended and the way it used to be.
They see themselves as divinely chosen to pull the sinning masses back into line. Anyone who does not conform to the writings of a bunch of long-dead middle-eastern men must repent, convert, or suffer extreme sanction. Monotheism leaves neither middle ground nor gray area; whatever does not strictly conform gets terrorized into submission.
As a nation founded by men and women who were themselves fleeing from monotheistic oppression, America has labored from its beginnings to tolerate all gods, religions, and spiritual practices. By separating church and state, the Founders hoped to avoid the overwhelming coercion that occurs when those two institutions agree in dominist thrust. Two centuries later it seems clear that, despite its brave and enlightened birth, America has developed into an ardently Judeo-Christian, monotheistic nation in all of its politics and most of its community life. While other-believers undoubtedly feel safer and have greater freedom in America than most other countries, Buddhists do not run for office, Taoists do not push their opinions from regular seats among the TV punditry, and sports teams do not gather in circles to perform Wiccan rituals.
To the contrary, virtually all legal and political proceedings, as well as most elementary school days, begin at the very least with an invocation of "One nation under God." To the fundamentalists, this does not go nearly far enough; they constantly cavil about America's failings as a monotheist nation and, with utter dominist gall, portray monotheists as victims of even the slightest accommodations to the views or feelings of other-believers.
All aggressive States tend toward monotheism because it provides the ultimate cover for the State-sanctioned violence of war. Nothing creates masses of willing martyrs, ready to storm the bulwarks of evil, better than the wide-spread and deeply-engrained belief that God himself commands the army, directs the battle, and lifts dying straight to heaven. Any personal fears, realpolitik ambiguities, or nagging moral nuances fade before the bright and shining image of God bestowing his exclusive blessings upon the troops. True, the other side usually thinks the same, but that's the genius of monotheism: they're wrong! Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. God is on our side.
We should never expect dominists to willingly work for women's liberation because the subjugation of women stands side-by-side with militarism, unilateralism, and monotheism as a first tenet of dominism.
For Western and Middle Eastern cultures, the subjugation of women begins in Genesis with "God the Father." The father or male principle appears throughout the Bible as the active, initiating force and sustaining presence for all aspects of the human experience. We find little reference to a mother or female principle, anywhere in the Old Testament, which does not even have a word for Goddess." The New
Testament does have the Virgin Mary, but she acts as a mere mortal in the company of the divine Father and Son. Clearly, the men who wrote the Bible [and other holy books] made certain to establish God as masculine. Though they tell us that God created us in His likeness, in fact quite the opposite occurred.
Having determined God's gender, the first few pages of Genesis go on to cast woman as a subordinate—hardly an afterthought—to man. This biblical story has profoundly affected all of the Jews, Christians, and Moslems who have ever read the Old Testament and considered it the word of God, as well as all of the other people of the world who have found themselves under the domination of one of these three Old Testament religions. In the first few pages of the Bible, the nature of woman as subordinate to man gets divinely cast and forever justified. Remember, she asked for it. For the rest of dominist history, she gets it.
The travails of women, through both the Old and New Testaments, makes such a sorry tale that one wonders how so many can think of the Bible as "the greatest story ever told" or, for that matter, as a holy book. The very people who so revere the Bible would quickly denounce as pornography any book written today that contained so much rape, pillage, murder, bondage, and child abuse. Yet because God himself
demands the constant violence and violation in the Bible, his believers deem it sanctified. Brutality in the name of God the Dominator becomes righteous, even holy, because he commands it. Besides, it's all her fault, anyway.
Any religion that so posits the father/man as a power over the mother/woman invariably becomes a system of domination, of ranking and judging, and of ordained abuse by men against women. This in turn gives credence, and the blessings of God, to the many precepts of dominist culture: only men can serve as priests; only husbands can own property and only sons can inherit; female sexuality brings suffering and sin into the world; above all, man rules over woman and has dominion
over nature. Men rule the world; women serve as helpmeets.
however much a nation might strive to create balanced and equitable gender relations, so long as that nation's underpinnings derive from Old Testament doctrine, the very idea of women's liberation will strike many as utter nonsense, if not terrible blasphemy.
To the fundamentalist, women's real liberation comes in serving the roles defined for them 2,000 years ago in the Bible. The many coveted freedoms of modern women—to take part in all levels of society, including as political and religious leaders; to follow their passions and skills to whatever work most excites them; to receive payments for their efforts equal to the payments men receive for like efforts; to have sovereignty over their bodies; to genuinely cooperate with men in matters of sex, reproduction, and raising children—all of these cherished liberations run starkly counter to biblical doctrine. A nation led by religious fundamentalists can only see women as divinely ordained, second-class citizens.
As in the case of monotheism, biblical sexism derives from the absolute, non-negotiable, and unambiguous word of God. Women who stray from the fundamentalists' rigid proscriptions get punished according to their cultures.
The Taliban called such women harlots and stoned them to death in public squares. In America, we call them shrill, aggressive feminists and marginalize them with legal chicanery, media spin, and glass ceilings. Or we shrug as Falwell, Robertson and their ilk denounce uppity women from public pulpits and inspire fanatics to attack women's health clinics. Or we simply take for granted that, even in modern America—leader of
the free world and bastion of civilization—violence against women occurs with soul-sapping regularity.
Like militarism, unilateralism, and monotheism, sexism virally spreads in dominist culture. The more widely-accepted the dominist version of men's and women's god-given roles, the less that individual men and women will ever see beyond their proscribed realities, and the more likely that most people (sinners aside) will come to confirm God the Father's supposed plan. So runs the dangerous logic of sexism: because God ordained from the beginning that women should not tarry with things such as reading, writing, and thinking deeply, men wrote the books that for thousands of years have been used to keep women from pursuing literacy and education; because God ordained from the beginning that only men should serve as political and religious leaders, women never had a voice in developing the political and religious
systems that oppress them so; most tragically, because God ordained from the beginning that the varying differences between men and women led naturally to non-negotiable roles and standing in life, individual freedom and untold human potential has withered on the vine of sexist predetermination."
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/23/08 1:05
A: So due to all monotheistic religions being so blatantly sexist, it's certainly no surprise that Paganism, Wicca, is on the rise today - particularly with women/teenage girls, and I'm glad to hear it. The more Paganism in the world, the better.
After all, monotheism, in whatever form, worships an all male diety. Yet in Wicca, there is Goddess and God - (since both are necessary if one wishes for balance and wholeness.) In Wicca, women are expected to be leaders - in monotheism, she is expected to be a second-class citizen to men; only men lead, rule over women, women must be silent, etc. Yet in Wicca women are taught to learn to speak up and speak boldly.
As one person noted about Wicca and women: "It empowers us is ways that the religions of Abraham cannot."
So true, so true....
From BBC:
"The attraction of Paganism is not only in the idea of casting love spells. The popularity of Paganism can also be attributed to the fact that it tackles issues that teenagers are interested in - in a way that other religions do not.
The supernatural is a good example of this. Massimo Introvigne (lecturer at Harvard University) suggests that programmes such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer illustrate the problems that organised religions are suffering from. He says that Buffy is telling us that "Supernatural beings may be out there, but traditional theology is not regarded as useful for dealing with them".
Paganism also places issues such as the environment, morality and gender at the top of its list of priorities. These are issues that teenagers can relate to. The Pagan Federation of Great Britain states in its three main principles a "love for and kinship with Nature", a "positive morality" and a "recognition of the Divine which transcends gender".
Author Silver Ravenwolf thinks that the inclusion of women is a particularly important factor for the masses of teenage girls who turn to Paganism. She says 'women in particular don't like the idea of being second-class citizens in spirituality. Wicca has the male and female on the same footing'.
God & Goddess Bless
Name:sam •
Date: 09/23/08 20:37
A: Hello Judith,
Thank you for your answer, and here my answer to the few important ones.
"I have not read the whole QURAN ".
--- I dead read the Bible , the Gospels [& the letters of Paul], and the Quran, many times over, and I wasn't reading them as a believer in any of them, but as to come to the truth since the whole world are fighting, each claim that his book/books are the words of God !!!.
I never believed in any religion all my life, and I do hate those religious people from all sides, those who do spread hate and wars and kill each other in the name of God. But always I do believe in God all my life, and I do feel HE is there, and I do know that from the time I was very young, by observing myself and the world aroud me.
Dear Judith, Most people they come to earth and live few years, and then they leave and not seeing the marvels of God creation, They can see themselves as man/woman made of beautiful body, but they do not see how been created from a tiny drop to evolve to be a great machine of bones and flesh with a trillions of small parts work together, and that is the same for many other creatures.
People look at the things around them in the world as a person look at painting with beautiful colours whithout connecting the painting to the one who draw it, but I do always do think about the maker of things and connect the work to Him, because the important has to be for the one who created the painting and not the painting itself.
We are the most intelligent creature on this earth, and we alway forget that we are how small and weak we are in the world which we live in. God gave us and example:
Q-22:73 O people, an example is presented so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke beside GOD will never create (as much as) a fly, even if they gathered together for it (i.e., that purpose). And if the fly should steal from them a tiny things, they could not recover it from him. WEAK ARE THE PURSUER AND PURSUED.
" I also agree that the Dark ages did much damage to all written materials....and not just by Christians"
----- I did mention that the Quran from the time it was written [1400 years ago] not a even one word has been changed and the Quran that ones read in China , in Arabia and in Canada are the same, word by word and letter by letter. So, you cannot include this book with the Bible and the Gospels which there are proofs that they hold false stories and wrong information, and been forged many time during the years, and you are wrong in the claim that you made, and that because you do not know the story of the Quran and how it was written then aproved by the Prophet while He still alive, the other books wer writen by people other than Moses or Jesus and after many years.
"the birth and life of Ismeal and Issac, and it was there that I decided it was a dispute between half brothers "
---- You said that you find The story of Ismael & Isaac as a dispute between half brothers, that is all, but if you go and read it carefully , line by line you will find much more than dispute between children, but spreading of lies & hate, which we still see it from the Jews/Christians until this day, here is my findings:
And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram TO BE HIS WIFE. [another Bible “ to be His concubine], (Abraham was 85 years old)
- And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram. (Here Abraham was 86 year old)
- And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. ( Here Ishmael was 13 and the first born son to Abraham)
- And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. (Abraham now is 100 years old when Isaac was born, and at this time Ishmael was 100-86=14 years old.)
- And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned. ( it is known that the weaning of the child will be at the age of 2. ( that makes the age of Abraham 102, and Isaac 2 , and Ishmael 16)
- Wherefore she [Sarah] said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be HEIR with my son, even with Isaac. ( Here the story brings jealousy, selfishness and hate, and that cannot be attributed to God, in the sight of God there no poor or rich, no master or slave, and God will not agree to what Sarah done to Hagar and Ishmael, but the hate towards them and their descendants are still practiced all the time by the believer in this book )
- And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle/skin of water, and gave it unto Hagar, PUTTING IT ON HER SHOULDER, AND THE CHILD [ISHMAEL] , and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water was spent in the bottle, and she CAST [throw the child- in another bible] THE CHILD UNDER THE SHRUBS.
Here the child is at the age of 16. At that age no one will call the 16 years old young man a child. At that age a young man can marry and have a family, and of course he can walk and no need for his mother to carry him. At that age the mother cannot throw/cast her son under the shrubs , also at that age the mother cannot carry the 16 years old son + the food + the water, and walk in the wilderness for any lent of time. The story cannot be correct or right, but it was made up by the people of Sarah who hatted Hagar and her son.
- And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. (God gave Ishmael the name)
- 17:7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (That came after the birth of Ishmael and before Isaac was born)
- And AS FOR ISHMAEL , I have heard thee: Behold, I HAVE BLESSED HIM, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (How can people hate Ishmael while God gave him HIS blessings -and many times?).
- And God was with the lad [Ishmael]; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. (God was with Him, and the others hated him )
But we read after
- And he [Ishmael] will be like a MOUNTAIN ASS ass among men; his hand will be against every man and every man's hand against him, and he will keep his place against all his brothers. ( in another bible WILD ASS, and in another WILD MAN etc., and we see here the mentioning of BROTHERS, but we know that Ishmael has only one brother , Isaac.)
Can we believe that God will accept to call anyone such names in the first place? And what then about the one whom been blessed by HIM, and be with HIM. .
This is just one of the many wrong stories which were written in the Bible and attributed to God, and that cannot be accepted by any honest man.
Judith, I find it strange that that you ignore the real scientific informations in the Quran that I mentioned in my post and you went to tell me about story from the Bible.
I want to ask you your honest opinion about them, and please bring any verse in the Bible and the gospels which has at list some scintific information about anything.
God bless you.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/23/08 21:57
A: "Many of the earliest known creation stories are of a Great Mother: a female giver and nurturer of life, the Goddess of animals, plants, and humans, waters, earth and sky," writes author Riane Eisler.
This concept of a Great Mother is also reflected in numerous Native creation stories. An intrinsic respect for women in their society also complements their belief that the Native Peoples' origin stems from a Woman or Female Spirit(s).
Corn was a highly valued staple in the Americas and together with the other vital crops of beans and squash, the grouping was named the "Three Sisters, Our Supporters" in accordance with the belief that the plants also embodied female spirits. Mother Corn Herself, the nurturing Creatrix and Sustainer, was held in the highest esteem as shown in the following creation story.
"Once all living things were in the womb of Mother Earth. Corn Mother caused all things to have life and start to move toward the surface of the Earth. With Corn Mother's help, the people were born onto the surface of the Earth, but because the people did not know how to care for themselves, they started to wander...Finally the Arikara came to a beautiful land where they found everything they needed to live. A woman of great beauty came to them and the Arikara recognized her as the Corn Mother. She stayed with them for many years and taught them how to live and work on the Earth and how to pray. When she died, Corn Mother left the people a corn plant as a reminder that her spirit would always guide and care for them. The Arikara say that the beautiful place where they learned to live was the valley of the Loup River in Kansas."
Female spirits were also considered integral to daily and ceremonial life. The Hopi, Cherokee and Arikara, believed in a Corn Mother who gave birth to them and also created the land that sustained them. Cherokees say they came from the breast of Corn Mother(Selu, who died so that maize would spring from her body and give life to the people. The Iroquois believe that they were born from the mud on the back of the Earth, known as Grandmother Turtle... For the Sioux, White-Buffalo Calf Woman gave the people the 'Gift of the Pipe and Truth' and the first mothers of all the Tewa Pueblo people were called Blue Corn Woman,
Summer Mother, White Corn Maiden, and the Winter Mother.
According to the teachings of Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, "It is the Mother Who created the universe. The Father was just a Witness to the whole show. It is She That makes it beautiful so that He sees the show, that He becomes the spectator, because She loves Her creation." (Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, The Mother, 1980)
The Holy Spirit (God the Mother) gives birth to the Creation: "And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep and the [Holy] Spirit of God [the Mother] was moving over the surface of the waters." (Genesis 1:2)
"The spiritual understanding and gender preferences in this material is based upon the teachings of Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, who says that the Holy Spirit is God the Mother. God the Mother is actually very present in the scriptures, where She is usually called Holy Spirit or Wisdom. According to Shri Mataji God the Father is the Witness who watches God the Mother do all the work of Creation.
For example, here is John 1:1-5 written according to Shri Mataji's teachings. You will clearly see God the Mother in it now:"
"In the beginning was the Word [the Omkara of the Adi Shakti] and the Word was with God [God the Father] and the Word was God [God the Mother]. She was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Her, and apart from Her nothing came into being that has come into being. In Her was Life and the Life was the Light of men. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (John 1:1-5)
"By the Word of the Lord [by the Omkara of the Adi Shakti] the heavens were made and by the breath of Her mouth, all their Host." (Psalms 33:6)
http://www.holyspirit-shekinah.org
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/24/08 1:33
A: Per Barbara Walker:
“Myths of creation generally present a symbolic view of birth. Conditions before creation suggest the uterine environment: darkness, liquid, stirring or churning movement, the ‘eternal flux’ associated with the blood of the Mother (Kali’s Ocean of Blood, for example.) ..
The Bible’s highly derivative version says ‘the earth was without form, and void: and darkness was upon the face of the Deep’. The Deep was the Mother’s womb, tehom, derived from Tiamat, the Babylonian name of the primordial Goddess. In Egypt, she was Temu, mother of the abyssal elements: Water, Darkness, Night, and Eternity.
Most creation myths speak of a splitting or opening in the dark, formless Mother. The beginning of the existing world is signaled by the coming of light. Romans made the connection with birth quite clear: Juno Lucina was not only a creatress, but also the Mother who brought ‘light’ to the eyes of the newborn. The biblical God who said ‘Let there be light’ (Fiat lux) copied the word of the Goddess..
Creation/birth was inseparable from the figure of the Mother. The oldest myths made her the divider of waters, maker of heaven and earth. When a god came into the picture, he was at first only her subordinate consort, one of the beings she had created.. Late Egyptian gods who claimed to be creators never succeeded in ridding themselves of feminine imagery. For instance, Khepera insisted that he created the universe alone, yet he had to say, ‘I laid a foundation in Maa’, meaning the Great Womb, the Goddess Maat.
Often it is said when the god was allowed to create, he became puffed up with pride, and began to ignore his Mother and claim sole authorship of the universe. This angered the Goddess. She punished him, bruised his head with her heel, and sent him down to the underworld.
Gnostic creation myths of the early Christian era were still telling versions in which the female principle was pre-eminent, which is why they were declared uncanonical. ‘In his madness,’ Jehovah claimed to be the only God, because he had forgotten the Mother who brought him into being, according to one source.
However absurd, these myths still maintain a hold on vast numbers of people deliberately kept in ignorance by an obsolete fundamentalism. Even educated adults sometimes insist that an omniscient god created the world for a purpose of his own.”
Name:sam •
Date: 09/25/08 20:36
A: Dear Sassy,
You brought what someone said: "Many of the earliest known creation stories are of a Great Mother: a female giver and nurturer of life, the Goddess of animals, plants, and humans, waters, earth and sky," writes author Riane Eisler.
"a female giver and nurturer of life",
and you sould know that the male sperm that gives life to the female egg in the first place, which is without it , it is nothing but a dead egg. R.E. forget that the life came from both male and female together, and the male has his own part in nutturing the life , and both are partner in the prosess, and that goes for all living thing on this earth.
EIRLIEST STORIES !!! ...There are many stories told by the people about a lot of things, and most of them came from the creation of their short mind, and those people back then believe in MYTHS too, but you Sassy live in the 21st century, and you should know better.
You and many others, specially woman, keep claiming that GOD is A FEMALE, by mentionning the name "GODESS".
Jesus mentioned God as THE HOLY SPIRIT, [BUT WHOEVER SPEKS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT], also mentioned God as "HIM", [HIM WHO SENT ME] Jesus never mentioned God as a man.
In the Bible the story tells us that God walked with Abraham, and for sure this story is false, made by people who created a lot of other false stories in the Bible.
Sassy, THE TRUTH is, God never visited the earth, and no one ever saw God. Any one who claim that he saw God is a liar, and those who make drawing as what He looks like , are just a stupid man imagination.
God is not man or woman like us , and he is not like any other creature of this world, and since humain do not know what He is then the best term to represent Him is "SPIRIT".
When we mention the name as SPIRIT, then we cannot attach to God anything belong to us. God been there before the creation [17 to 20 billion years] , He never has a partner or wife or children not in His universe and not on the earth. WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT GOD except what His messenger told us, that He is our creator, and everything is belong to Him. The son of god created by Paul as the Romans and the Greeks and many others created stories about god and godess and their children.
God bless you.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/25/08 22:59
A: "There are many stories told by the people about a lot of things, and most of them came from the creation of their short mind, and those people back then believe in MYTHS too, but you Sassy live in the 21st century, and you should know better."
I do know better ! I don't take myths 'literally' - that's why I believe in evolution - which took billions of years; not 6/7 thousand years. You're the one who should know better - you come across like a creationist. You say most creation myths came 'of their short mind' - yes, and the Genesis creation myth came from a short mind as well !
They want to teach creationism in public schools in the U.S., as though it were some kind of science (which it isn't). But they are discriminatory - they only want to teach the Genesis creation myth - why not the Native American creation myths? They are much better ! They honor women and the female principle, and have great respect for the earth, and are wise about the inter-connectedness of things. But sadly and tragically european white men destroyed their culture, which was very pro-female, until they 'civilized' them. (often women had it better 'before' being 'civilized'.)
"and you sould know that the male sperm that gives life to the female egg in the first place, which is without it , it is nothing but a dead egg."
But it's the egg, as well as the woman herself, who does most the 'work' in creating a child; the child feeds from her 'blood' not the father's blood. And the egg is not passive, while sperm is active; that's just sexism in science (and in biology there's still quite a bit of sexism, despite feminist inroads.) The egg is just as active as the sperm. And, we 'get more' from our mothers, not fathers, that's why the dna from mothers 'lasts longer' - such as the tests they did on the Maria ossuary.
Oh, and by the way, Sam, just to burst your bubble, two women 'can' have a child together; that's why I like reading up on science. The child will always be a girl, too, if done this way ! So a man isn't always needed.
And, to burst your bubble again, it's the female, NOT the male that is primordial ! We all begin as females in the womb; we are all born of women. (so realistically speaking, man comes from woman, not the other way around as the Bible and other sexist 'holy books' like to claim.)
Speaking evolutionary-wise, we likely began in the sea, in a female sea, in a womb-like environment, following the rhythms of the moon, creating parthenogenetically ... the male came later. So women today in a sense, have small 'seas' within their wombs when pregnant. Even Darwin, sexist that he was (however, that doesn't mean I totally reject everything Darwin said), admitted that the female is primordial, not the male. Darwin also believed the sea is where the menstrual cycle began. (And for fun, just to note, the male orgasm is for procreation; but the female orgasm is for her pleasure alone!) :D
Today, due to the great imbalance between male/female energies that's been going on for centuries (favoring male over female), we have all the destruction of the earth, all the pollution, and I've read of male fish either dying or else becoming female to survive! Awile ago, I read of a water place so polluted in California, that the male fish were turning female to survive; because the males died, while females thrived. So, the female sex isn't always the 'weaker' sex after all. That was just a myth the patriarchal propaganda machine made up long ago.
And, the female hormones, especially estrogen, but also progersterone, is 'natural' in nature, in plants. But the same cannot be said for testosterone. Again, this all shows to me more 'proof' of the female, not male, being primordial. So if one is going to be a creationist, it makes more sense to me to have a Mother which 'created' not a Father.
As for the Holy Spirit, She IS the feminine of God; do your research. In Judaism, the term for spirit was feminine, before being turned 'masculine' later on. (the patriarchal propaganda machine didn't want the feminine of the divine any part of the trinity.) As for what Jesus always says, I take with a grain of salt; all written by men in a very savage and sexist era, women edited out of the story or else their roles 'downplayed'. So of course they only have Jesus mention God or Holy Spirit as 'He.'
Yet, in some of the 'heretical' texts, Jesus does pray to his Mother the Spirit. Also, the Holy Spirit has many 'motherly' traits, if you 'objectively' think about it. And, Wisdom in the Bible is referred to as 'she'; and Wisdom is really Sophia. But, they didn't want to use Sophia, because it just has to feminine of a sound, and thus wasn't part of their agenda; most of the feminine imagery of God in the Bible was removed long ago - but not all of it; there are still some 'clues' here and there.
Just because the patriarchal propaganda machine was out to make God all-male, it doesn't mean 'She' isn't still around. She may be ignored, denied, ridiculed, but that doesn't mean She isn't there. And, She is returning to our consciousness today; whether it's through Wicca or other Pagan beliefs, or else through Christians honoring God the Mother, and/or the Holy Spirit as She, as well as Jews honoring the Shekinah as God the Mother. And, at least in some of the more enlightened branches of Christianity and Judaism, women are ministers and preachers and rabbis. Cool. Right on.
She, the Goddess, is returning, at least to some of us, like it or not.
Oh, and I never said God walked on the earth, so not sure why you're throwing that at me? You also said God never had a wife, but Yahweh did; they just got rid of her. Asherah (who's ridiculed in the old testament) was his wife - there's been some proof discovered thanks to archaeology; for one example, a throne of Yahweh's was found not long ago, and it was a throne for two people, not one !
God/dess Bless us, everyone !
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/25/08 23:33
A: I meant to say that the earth is billions of years old; not 6/7 as lots of creationists believe.
Here's a book to read "Adam's Curse" by Bryan Sykes
From Publishers Weekly
Well-known Oxford geneticist Sykes (The Seven Daughters of Eve), in this lively and thought-provoking book, gives a genetic twist to the battle between the sexes. All human existence, he says, stems from the battle between the X and Y chromosomes to further their own reproduction at the expense of the other. The Y chromosome is passed on only by fathers, while mitochondrial DNA is passed on only by mothers. Sykes shows that many members of several Scottish clans (most notably the Macdonalds) can be traced via their Y chromosomes back to a common ancestor. Researchers have also been able to trace the extent of Viking settlement and intermarriage in the British Isles and northern Europe through Y chromosome distribution. Sykes's argument for a genetic role in homosexuality will undoubtedly be controversial. Using Dean Hamer's pedigrees, he claims that evidence points less to a "gay gene" than to mitochondrial DNA playing the leading role in a Machiavellian plot to further its own reproduction. Sykes concludes by noting that, as evidenced by declining sperm counts and high percentages of abnormal sperm, among other variables, the Y chromosome is a genetic mess and is deteriorating so quickly that men could become extinct. Those who find that a happy thought will want to snap up this book, as well as readers interested in learning what our chromosomes tell us about where we came from and where we may be headed."
A world without men would mean.... less rape, less murder, less child-abuse, less war... hmmm I kind of like it.... :b
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/25/08 23:45
A: from Rebirth of the Goddess, by Carol P. Christ
Slaying the Goddesses
Most people are more familiar with the Goddesses from classical Greek and Near Eastern mythology than with the Goddesses of earlier times. These Goddesses, including Athena, Aphrodite, Artemis, Inanna, and Ishtar, come from the warrior societies of the Bronze and Iron Ages. In the mythologies of these cultures, the Goddesses of the Neolithic and Paleolithic eras are slain or made subordinate to the new Gods of the patriarchal warriors, such as Zeus and Marduk. As classicist Jane Harrison points out, the writers of patriarchal mythologies are motivated by a 'theological animus.' Their goal is to dethrone the Goddess and to legitimate the new culture of the patriarchal warriors...
In Greece, there are a number of versions of the myth of the slaying of the Goddess. One of them is the story of Apollo's conquest of Delphi, told in the Homeric Hymn 'To Pythian Apollo' (c. 700-600 B.C.E.). Aeschylus says that the first to be worshiped at Delphi was the Earth (Gaia) followed by Phobe (the Moon) and Themis (the Goddess of Social Order). Delphi, which is etymologically related to the word for womb, was understood to be the birthplace of the universe.
Archaeological evidence confirms that Apollo's shrine replaced an earlier one to Gaia, the Earth. To justify Apollo's acquisition of the site, the hymnist states that when Apollo came to Delphi, he
Slew with his mighty bow a female dragon,
A well-fed, powerful monster, savage and bloody,
Who worked many evils on men who lived in that land.
Like Tiamat, the female 'dragon' who guards the shrine of Mother Earth is portrayed as the source of evil. The dragon's demise is every bit as bloody and sadistically portrayed as Tiamat's.
In the classical mythology of Greece, each of the Goddesses is deprived of the power that once was hers. In Homer, Hera, once the autonomous Goddess of the Argive plain and of Samos, becomes the frustrated and unhappy wife of Zeus. In Hesiod, Pandora, the Goddess whose name means 'Giver of All,' is portrayed as a woman who opens a jar (often incorrectly translated as 'box') and releases evil into the world...
...The many stories of Zeus raping Goddesses, nymphs, and mortal women are yet another version of the myth of the slaying of the Goddess.
Survivals of the Ancient Goddesses
Once we recognize the myths of patriarchy for what they are, we can begin to look again at the familiar images of the Goddesses that come to us through later patriarchally influenced cultures. As Gimbutas has taught us to see, there are many survivals of Old European religion in classical mythology, in folk tradition, and even within Christianity. Though Athena is in some respects a very patriarchalized Goddess and a traitor to her sex, we can also glimpse the Old European Goddess through her. We can understand that she, rather than a male God, was the guardian of patriarchal and warlike Athens because she was the ancient Goddess of the Rock that was later named the Acropolis. The olive tree she produced in her contest with Poseidon connects her with the agricultural Goddesses. Her companion animals, the owl and the snakes that protect her shield, are symbols of the Old European Goddess.
The Goddesses of patriarchal mythology dimly relfect the power of women and Goddesses in prepatriarchal societies. They are the ones who gave rise to the scholarly myth that Goddesses are the creations of men and that their images everywhere support male power. But more ancient images of the Goddesses and echoes of their power in later myths and customs challenge the widely held belief that 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.'
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/26/08 0:02
A: "Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty
without any proof."
[Ashley Montague]
From “Atheism Central for Secondary School Students – DETOX”:
“Three Points About Creationism
Creationism is a doctrine that comes in many guises. There's biblical creationism and scientific creationism, and there's literal creationism and liberal creationism. The differences are superficial, and all variants share blind faith in the same curious little story from an anonymous compilation of ancient myths. It is possible, therefore, to treat them all as one and to reject them all as one.
Here are three brief points about debate between the theories of creation and evolution that support rejecting creation after only cursory examination. Creationism should be denied a seat at the table without being given time to preach its details.
1. Creation and evolution are each representative of a broad epistemology. Framing the issue of the origins and diversity of life as a contest or debate between creation and evolution disguises the point. The real issue is whether a naturalistic epistemology or a supernaturalistic epistemology is correct.
Evolution is a theory that is part of a naturalistic epistemology. Its knowledge is natural. It owes its existence (like every successful scientific theory) to a single virtue: it is the best explanation of nature. Nature imposes itself on it, and it unites and simplifies natural
evidence. Accepting (or rejecting) a naturalistic theory requires only empirical observation and analysis -- evidence that can be accepted on its own merits. Therefore, naturalistic theories are persuasive on their own merits. They use known data to explain unknown processes. In other words, naturalistic theories attempt to explain the unknown by the known.
Creation is a theory that is part of a supernaturalistic epistemology. Its knowledge transcends nature. Its knowledge is not obtained from the natural world. It is imposed on nature, thus making it more complicated. Accepting it requires faith because there is not any evidence that makes it persuasive. Only natural evidence does not require faith and can be accepted on its own merits. Therefore, supernaturalistic theories are not persuasive on their own merits. Nor can they be fully understood. In other words, supernaturalistic theories attempt to explain the unknown by the unknowable.
The issue is not which theory is superior. The issue is which epistemology is superior. To decide, we must use reason. "Reason is not one tool of thought among many, it is the entire toolbox." Reason supports only a naturalistic epistemology. Simply because it is not a naturalistic theory, creation must be rejected.
2. Creation and evolution are not theories with equal merit. Creationists discuss them as if they were. This is deception, stupidity or lunacy -- pick one.
Evolution is scientific theory and fact. It is verifiable and falsifiable. It makes predictions that have proven true. It is observable both in laboratories and in nature. It is open to public scrutiny and contentious debate. It is open to change and improvement. It has practical application to other sciences. It is explicit and rigorous. It is an incomplete theory with the capacity to expand its (already vast) explanatory power.
Creation is none of these things. It is neither verifiable nor falsifiable. It has no predictive or explanatory power. It cannot be observed, scrutinized or questioned. It is static and incapable of improvement – it can only be "re-understood." It is a complete theory, but because it is vague, ambiguous and subject to interpretation, it is incomprehensible. It has no practical application to other sciences. In fact, the following fields of knowledge would have to be overhauled to be made consistent with creationism: anthropology, astronomy, biology, botany, chemistry, geology, geophysics, meteorology, paleontology, philosophy, physics, psychology, sociology, world history and zoology.
This is not an example of a contest between competing theories. It is a silly question of which is more rational: science or pseudoscientific gobbledygook.
3. Creation and evolution are not alone, and they are not opposites. It is not the case that criticism of one provides support to the other.
Creationist argument often (always?) consists solely of attacks on evolutionary theory. Even if we assume that these arguments have merit, they add no strength to the creationist position.
The creationist strategy is called "dualism." The argument has value only if (a) these are the only two possible theories, or (b) the theories are diametric opposites. First, (a) is incorrect. If the creation story in the Old Testament is a viable explanation, many equally viable creation stories must also be considered.” [such as some of the ones I’ve posted under this topic.] “All have equal merit. Second, (b) is obviously incorrect. Theories simply cannot be opposites. Therefore, the truth or falsity of evolution does not make creation more convincing.
Dualism is rhetorical subterfuge and nothing more. A complete rebuttal is simply, "So what?" At best, its criticism demonstrates the incompleteness of our understanding of the world. Creationists cry, "Success! There are gaps in your theory, so you must believe ours." This so-called "god in the gaps" approach, besides being inherently illogical as dualist, only substitutes faith in a supernatural being for honest ignorance. It does not increase our knowledge or reduce the number of questions we have. It actually increases our ignorance by introducing another unknown (worse: unknowable) entity. This is
unreasonable. The reasonable response to gaps in a theory is to close them by expanding, modifying or replacing the theory with one that has greater explanatory power (although the replacement option is extreme and revolutionary -- see Kuhn). In this way, evolution has itself "evolved" dramatically since Darwin and others proposed it 85 years before the
discovery of DNA. The gaps are closing. Naturally.”
____
The foolish and cruel notion that a wife is to obey her husband has sent more women to the grave than to the courts for a divorce.
~Lemuel K. Washburn, Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays, 1911
Name:sam •
Date: 09/27/08 17:24
A: Dear Sassy,
You said: "evolution - which took billions of years; not 6/7 thousand years. You're the one who should know better "
First, I do know better, better than you, generally speaking , because I know the fact that only the Christians [in the past 2000 years] believe in the 6/7 thousand years, and the Muslims and I , we do not believe in what the Christians believe in, about the ceration which came in the Bible.
The Islam religion do not put a date or time about the creation, but they know that the real information about all is only known by God. The evolutionist, al what they bring is a gess, only the short minded who believe that human came from apes, you tell me which one?, because there are many spieces of them.
The Quran mentioned in this verse;
70:4 The angels and the spirit [i.e.,Gabriel] will ascend to HIM during A DAY THE EXTENT OF WHICH IS FIFTY THOUSAND YEARS.
Day = 50 000 years.
If you understand that the day on our earth is no more than the 24 hours that took the earth to make one revolution around its axis, and the day on Jupiter {Though Jupiter is the largest planet, it rotates extremely fast on its orbit taking 9 hours 55 minutes Earth hours. }
But the year on Jupiter, {Jupiter takes 12 Earth years to revolve around the sun. }
SO, the day and the year can be different in different part of the universe, A day for our galaxy [one revolution round its axis] , and A year [the revolution of the galaxy around the center of the universe can be counted by 250 000 years for the first and by 17 billion years for the second.
DARWIN the Master of the evolution theory, did not have the knowledge of today about the billions of galaxies of our universe , that came by MR.HUBBLE much later on.
Few Years ago, on the National Gepgraphic forums we had many discusions about a topic "evolution & creation", and here just few line:
HOW TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF SOMEONE WE NEVER SAW OR HEARD FROM?
WE can prove someone existence by the print that he left behind, and here a simple example:
Let us look at the train , the car and the plane. We all know that they exist, but they did not ALL exist at one time, centuries ago the ones that came first are different from the others that follow them, and they are today much better and much advanced. All started by one single invention (creation) long time ago. “THE WHEEL”(let’ call it the first dead single CELL from man creation), but no one knows how exactly this invention processed, and whom is responsible for it, or when it happen. (That is exactly of our knowledge about GOD and HIS creation). Then the wheel became a “CART” by some genius who added few part to it, and while the wheel was first and the base for all what to come after, we mention the new invention by the name “CART”, and the wheel just part of it. Driven by man or by animal the cart is a cart. Then a new invention came to change the use of man/animal power by new developed power from other sources, and the cart became “CAR”, “TRAIN”, “PLANE”, and the wheel still a wheel, small wheel that turn and move all the developments on this earth, and we take it for granted, while it was and still the first building block that man use to achieve a lot of his success . With all the benefit that we get from the wheel, the name of the unknown person who created the wheel is unknown to us . Can we deny his existence because we did not see or hear from him?. Can we give him a name just for our appreciation to what he gave us?. His print is every were, so how can we deny him . The wheel did not create itself.
WHOM CREATED ALL THINGS?.
THE FACT THAT THING CANNOT BE CREATED FROM NOTHING, AND CREATION NEEDS CREATOR. The thing was there, and the creator was there to create from it, and the things which were created is the print to prove the creator.
In the case of the wheel, we believe in the man through his small wheel invention only, but as of the creator of all things and everything that we know, and things behind our imagination that we will come to know after, and in the right time, all those is here to prove His existence, beside, HE the creator sent messages through the ages to tell the truth about Himself to let people know about HIS existence, and with all that there still some doubt in the heart of some in believing in HIM.
-----
In the last message that came from God, God gave many examples to prove HIS words, Here is one of them:
1- 24:40 Or [they are] like darkness within AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, OVER WHICH ARE CLOUDS.Darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom GOD has not granted light , for him there is no light.
In this verse we see the sequence clear. There are waves in the deep sea, and then there are surface waves, then the clouds.
My question to you Sassy, DO YOU THINK OR AGREE THAT THERE ARE WAVES IN THE DEEP SEAS BELOW THE SURFACE WAVES.
PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR ANSWER, if you know the truth.
Another example from the words of God will come next, so you can give your opinion on it.
God bless you.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 09/28/08 5:52
A: perhaps it was a woman who invented the wheel...
"In the beginning, Eurynome, the Goddess of All Things, rose naked from chaos… Eurynome & Ophion made their home upon Mount Olympus, where he vexed her by claiming to be the author of the universe. Forthwith she bruised his head with her heel, kicked out his teeth, and banished him to the dark caves below the earth…Eurynome’s Sumerian name was Iahu (exalted dove) a title which later passed to Jehovah as the creator."
The god Bel is another of the many creator gods; though Bel is a masculine form of Belili, the Sumerian Mother-goddess.
"The Black Virgins possess great power, the mana of the old goddess of life, death, and rebirth. Mana is an extraphysical power immanent in and emanating from nature, viewed as the embodiment of all elemental forces that produce and maintain the order of the universe."
The patriarchal tradition has pretty much ignored the implications of God's motherly side and of our responsibility to develop the mother in ourselves, whether we are women or men, heterosexual or homosexual.
[Matthew Fox]
When the mind is disturbed, the multiplicity of things is produced,
but when the mind is quieted, the multiplicity of things disappears.
[Ashvaghosha]
The Western mind is easily confused by the fabulous number of gods and goddesses which populate Hindu mythology in their various appearances and incarnations. To understand how the Hindus can cope with this multitude of divinities, we must be aware of the basic attitude of Hinduism that in substance all these divinities are identical. They are all manifestations of the same divine reality, reflecting different aspects of the infinite, omnipresent, and - ultimately - incomprehensible Brahman.
[Fritjof Capra]
This that people say, 'Worship this god! Worship that god!'-one after another- this is his [Brahman's] creation indeed! And he himself is all the gods.
[from Hindu scriptures]
In the Hindu-Shakta tradition the goddess Shakti is worshiped as the ultimate reality... the life force; cosmic energy experienced as female... without Shakti, primal energy, the god Shiva is dormant, lifeless..
[E. Gadon]
Zen: A special transmission outside the scriptures,
Not founded upon words and letters,
Pointing directly to the human mind,
Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.
My connection with the body and its parts is dissolved. My perceptive organs are discarded. Thus leaving my material form and bidding farewell to my knowledge, I become one with the Great Pervader. This I call sitting and forgetting all things.
[Chuang Tzu]
A fully realized human is one who, per Lao Tzu: 'knows the masculine and yet keeps to the feminine.'
The Tao is the One.
From the One come yin and yang;
From these two, creative energy;
From energy, ten thousand things,
The forms of all creation.
All life embodies yin
And embraces yang,
Through their union
Achieving harmony.
[Tao 42]
Develop your masculine power
Yet be gentle and nurturing.
Become open like a valley
So the river of virtue
Flows through you,
Returning you to source.
[Tao 28]
While lesser people crave power and dominance, Tao leaders reject competitive hierarchies as unnatural. They build networks, realizing we're all part of the interlocking web of life.
[D. Dreher]
There is a growing awareness that we are doomed as a species and planet unless we have a radical change of consciousness. The re-emergence of the Goddess is becoming the symbol and metaphor for this transformation of culture....
James Lovelock's 'Gaia Hypothesis' has made us aware of our planet as a self-creative, self-maintaining, living organism.
[Elinor Gadon]
The feminine call for a new recognition arises simultaneously with the violence that threatens to get out of hand... The archaic goddesses monitored the life cycle throughout its phases: birth, growth, love, death and rebirth. Evidently today our endangered life cycle needs divine monitoring. In the depths of the unconscious psyche, the ancient Goddess is arising. She demands recognition and homage. If we refuse to acknowledge Her, She may unleash forces of destruction. If we grant the Goddess Her due, She may compassionately guide us toward transformation.
[Edward Whitmont, 1982]
... the religion of the Goddess never completely died out despite the brutal persecutions. . . kept alive by a handful of the faithful... the Old Religion went underground and became the most secret of religions...
Name:sam •
Date: 09/28/08 17:06
A: Hi Sassy,
A smart person does not go in an empty curcle when dealing whith a subect, any subject. There are Question about many things out there, and there should be answer for those questions, a LOGICAL answer.
Trying to go around by bringing what you read from TOM & JERRY etc. and bringing their opinion as an answer does hold a scientifical or logical proof to the suject that we are talking about.
You spend a lot of time and you write many lines for nothing.
I did bring a question , and a simple one, and all what it need a few words to give an answer to it. either you know or NO.
Here the question again, and I hope you give your answer to that one question , thank you in advance.
-------
God gave many examples to prove HIS words, Here is one of them:
1- 24:40 Or [they are] like darkness within AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, OVER WHICH ARE CLOUDS.Darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom GOD has not granted light , for him there is no light.
In this verse we see the sequence clear. There are waves in the deep sea, and then there are surface waves, then the clouds.
My question to you Sassy, DO YOU THINK OR AGREE THAT THERE ARE WAVES IN THE DEEP SEAS BELOW THE SURFACE WAVES.
PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR ANSWER, if you know the truth.
---------
This question IF put in front of the 6 billions people on this earth, their answer will come as NO, but as for me and few scientist, and knowgable people the answer will be YES, and we can prove it by real scientific work, and not by the words of TOM & JERRY. .
