Name:truth •
Title: Islamic and Jewish views •
Date posted: 03/07/07 11:08
Q: What are some of the Islamic and Jewish views on the topic?
Name:roy •
Date: 03/16/07 10:02
A: ISLAMIC VIEW
James Cameron not knowingly or intentionally overlaps his claims on İslam religion. The findings of him may or may not be the real tomb of Jesus( personally I think remote possibility~ because if it was; it should have been known and respected by people for two thousand years).
We believe Jesus died and ascended to God, however not by crucifying but by natural death, after defeating enemy and well establishing His message to masses. we muslims believe that Bible once was the word of God but severely manupulated, and ammended by interest laden priests, and changed the main message of it. Yet still some sentences are original. Please continue your searches till something hits you for sure word of God. I recommend our book Qoran for review. If you still have some doubts call back again to me, if you are satisfied pray for me too.
http://www.amazon.com
search- for Qoran hardcover
http://www.the-holyquran.org/
Jesus- was a human being who was created resembling creation as Adam, made as God‘s speacial envoy and word. He was subject to death and resurrection as all other humans at the dooms day.[3:59]
He was not killed or crucified but the scenery was recepted as if he was crucified. In reality, he was never slayed, the person killed was resembled to him in the views of the enemy Israelites.[4:157,158]
He was not killed by enemies but survived till the natural death. [19:33]God has taken his life. They were not defeated by the enemies but on the contrary him and his supporter disciples and israelites defeated the enemies.[61:14]
These are the statements written 1430 years ago by Quran. It is believed by heart by billions of muslims, as a prerequisite to be accepted into Islam. Maybe out of bias, or fear of sameness they prefer to ignore what is claimed. It is surprising that modern world is barely aware of this fact or they blind their eyes with superstition. Christ, his disciples and his followers were also muslims who were ordered with salat (prayer) and zekat ( voluntary wealth distribution).
The views above is supported with the related verses of Quran as below. Some of the ideas has been tought by various western writers,which are noted as well.
Sura - 4 Women (Al-Nesaa')
[4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,
[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
Sura - 19 Mary (Maryam)
[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."
[19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.
[19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
*19:36 This is similar to the statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John 20:17.
Sura - 5 The Feast (Al-Ma'edah)
[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
*Look at the sameness of Kuran: Sura - 5 ( The Feast ) Al-Ma'edah and Bible Matta 7:21-23
*5:72-76 In John 20:17, we see that Jesus taught that he was neither God, nor the son of God. Many theologians have concluded, after careful research, that today's Christianity is not the same Christianity taught by Jesus. Two outstanding books on this subject are "The Myth of God Incarnate" (The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977) and The "Mythmaker" (Harper & Row, New York, 1986). On the front jacket of "The Mythmaker" we read the following statement:
" ...Hyam Maccoby presents new arguments to support the view that Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity....it was Paul alone who created a new religion through his vision of Jesus as a divine Saviour who died to save humanity."
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff)
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
*Sameness of Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff) and Bible İsiah 45:21,22
Psalm 99:9 Timothy 1:17 good news fro sneding another prophet called Ahmad(Hz Mohammad) or Pheraklid (praised)= Ahmad
[61:14] O you who believe, be GOD's supporters, like the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary. When he said to them, "Who are my supporters towards GOD," they said, "We are GOD's supporters." Thus, a group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved. We helped those who believed against their enemy, until they won.
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters / muslims."
*3:51 This is precisely what Jesus is quoted to say throughout the New Testament. See for example the Gospel of John 20:17, and the book "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray, Ch. 4 (Universal Unity, Fremont, CA 1992).
Muslims neither tout peace love or utopia nor intolerant to other religions. i m not fanatic muslim or deep rooted inconvincable theologian but just a common muslim, objective in observations, searching for the truth. 25 christian or secular states emerged after 600 years rule of islamic Ottoman rule; todays people didnt fly there all from rest of europe, only this simple fact must prove you islam has been tolerant and at equal distance to all human being. israel, lebenan were two of them lived close to thousand years under muslim authority, jewish and christians were there having own temples without any complaint in peace with no fight, under simple lutenant soldier governance. Look now what is happening for the last 40 years after muslim left.
The suicidal attacks are burdening to islam reputation not supporting nor representing any good values, however it is way below to shadow the open and enlightening message Qoran gives out.
Suicidal elements are commenting upon the false attributes to their faith. They have to keep their life as well as not to attack those who does not force or help these; oust from their homes. These are one of the few alowance to kill others. Killing himself is forbidden and punished at forever hell, according to the belief. They even kill their fellow muslims claiming they are not enough or upto their muslim standards. They are comparably minimal problems addressing racizm, fanatic jewism, anti-semitizm or evangelism which claims millions of lives each year?
There are several miracles mentioned in Quran at year of 620 AD. Some barely understood today, and many of the mysteries yet to be solved.
-Expansion of universe
-Creation from a nucleus
-Eclipses, paths of planets, galaxies
-Dual sexes of everything created
-Relativity of Time
-Flowing journey of sun in a path
-Source of light of sun; reflecting feature of moon
-Possibility of lunar voyage
-Surface layers to the pit
-Elipsoid shape of earth, arctic basins are at lower altitude
-Feature of wind as carrier of seed
-Measure of rain fall equals 500 million liter/year
-Water curtain at waterpasses between seas
-Flow of current at deep sea, darkness of depth
-Feature of mountains as balancing weight to the earth surface
-Movements of mountains as clouds, departing continents
-Earthquake break lines
-Evolution of petroleum
-Photosynthesis of plants
-Breathing is uneasy at increased altitudes
-Environmental problems as a result of man fault. Warning “keep the balance”
-Sexes in plants
-Female bee making the hove
-Communication ability in birds and ants…
-Texture of man from earth and water
-Creation starting from water
-Phases of baby creation in the womb
-Identification on tips of fingers
-Love between the couples
-Groups intermingle with marriages
-Spread of mankind from city of Mecca
-Sabeans, Magrib dam catastrophy,
-Yemen Ad Comunity Extinction Lost Pillars found recent years
-Lut Comunity, Sodom Gomorah being the lowest point on earth surface Jordan
-Haman name (Vice president for Paroah) revelas recently Egypt
-Paroah of Egypt killed at Red sea finding. His corpse analysed as hit to the rocks and left at sea for a long time
-Old testament and new testament correction, amendment of stories
-Romans good news of victory over Persians within 3-9 years that happend.
-Transporting of matter in light speeds
-Possibility of death of stars and sun
-Boiling of oceans as a scientific result of global warming caused by icebergs melt or at resurrection day
-Big bang and big inner downfall
-Seven layers above sky, and beneath earth down to pit.
These miraculous explanations may not awe you still? however you better check if they pass in Quran or not. There were many miracles performed at the time of Prophet Mohammed, but we cant prove them today scientifically, so I let them unmentioned.
(The idology only consist of Quran, no other additives of hadith and Shiriah laws which many muslim believes human inventions attributed to Islam but has no truth in them. The basis is only Quran)
I say There is one and only one God. Prophets ,including Jesus, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isiak, Esmail, Moses, David, Solomon, and Mohammed were His slaves and prophets among whom we accept no prerogative of any sort. I think we can understand God from his reflections, arts, doings, traces, ruling and His science on earth. Our eyes and mind is not designed to see Him fully, but feel Him like air, electricity, radioactivity, heat etc.. He made the books to be understood easily by common man. He wants us to obey the religions brought & implemented by prophets ~ as sample living humans.
God forgives all sins except heretics of trinity. Trias is strictly forbidden in Islam and said is the continuous pitfall in all previous religions, often lured many believers. It holds the same danger for muslims loving too much of anchestors, priests, or prophets to make them equal or germane in ranking to God. Even asking a wish from those deities are biggest sin committed against God. He warns in hundreds of verses of Quran and Bible to avoid this pitfall or else you wont be forgiven. (Killing may be forgiven but deity worshipping not.) So please be ware of this threat from God and check your books better.You are especially a person to lead the crowd and want to be closer to God. You will get the burden of each person you‘ve diverted too. True Christianity never offered equal deity to God. Christ was praying to God for help, why should he have done, if He had been a god himself? Jesus never said pray to me, ask from me. Please check the following Bible verses: Matta 7:21-23
Psalm 99:9
Timothy 1:17
Isiah 45:21,22
In logic, islam, and all modern justice system, there is one simple rule, noone may be hold responsible or punished for others crimes.
Even someone says “I want to atone for other person” (mother to son, son to father, lover to lover) do you accept it? Why God should?
On the other hand why human must have a sin as prerequisite and if had, not be able to save himself / herself by prayer? Or if will be saved by atonement of Jesus eventually, why to care to be a better person not commit sins?
Whichever perspective you look at the made-up belief by Byzantene ruler and council of yours, is misleading.
There is only same God; Adams, Noahs, Abrahams,christian or muslim version of it is meaningless. You accept or not it is the One and Same. The problem starts at adding some deity besides God.
Why should God be so complex not to be understood by common man? Does He address only to the scholars? If so why He held the common responsible what He says and forbids? Is He so cruel to punish those from which reasons that common people has no clue to understand?
Islam has brought the most clear understanding of God and definition of Christ for whom who wants to find out or whom God wants to reveal and let him be.
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Mary who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture? Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any thema difference in stories with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in Greece today.)
Christian Church claims The gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
“Going to his death willingly” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?;
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
I hope it helps the claims of Jesus was a dieable, marryable, child conceive causable and tomb burriable (yet to be proven) human with flesh and blood created by God’s word to Mary.
I believe the brotherhood to be adhered by man of any race, wealth, religion or sex. Beause they are equal and only be better than other in terms of observing God’s wishes. The religions come from same God although Jewish and Christians refuse to accept it, Islam is saying similar things plus improvement open to scientific evidence and criticism of any sort (except depicting or dishonoring holy figures). God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. Imperialism was on the scene that time, not now.
On the other hand if Church didnt defend their position strongly against other religions, there would have been no reason of existence of them and the priests and kings had to give up huge wealth and power over society. The latter religion forbids any devine class, rabbis, or super powered ruler, not to mention some papacy who claim to be the shadow and replica of God on earth! (another form of Imperialism)
Mentioning "Lord's tomb" Have you thought of why a Lord= God could probably have been able to killed by poor peaseants and might have a tomb. If God or piece of God have been killed, should nt be the universe collapse within itself? Or shouldnt have God almighty take revenge of comparingly the little atomic sized enemy of God who killed God? Trying to support dogma of bible you are way off the scientific approach, let alone critisizing the producers efforts searching for the truth.
On the other hand, personally I dont think it is the real tomb of Jesus, no matter the science supports them. The reason is if it was, the people should have been respecting the place, turn it into a temple, make a lot of publicism about it that no one can hide since 50 AD.
However the discussion of it reveals many false beliefs for Jesus about crusification, and reality. Their job is well done and mission accomplished at that dogmas should be questioned.
Mariamne was the name of the supposedly wife of Christ who was from Magdala, the names day is still celebrated in Greek Orthodox church. Director say, the scientists at 1980 didnt know it means the same thing (Mariamne = Maria Magdalene), untill recently Harvard professors find this fact out.
It makes your life pass easy if you believe in some kind of superior creator. Even child brain start asking questions from 2 years old, realising the substance, matters, life, logic may not just “happen” out of nowhere.
After loosing every living around when they die, it is easier to bear reality to accept the rejoining with loved ones as a compensation from God beyond death.
It is more soothing that there is a revenge taker on our behalf if there is something went wrong against us. If you trust to your state systems or uncles or gods inside self for these things; you may understand soon that you were missled terribly.
Hope it gave you some clues.
However the importance of the concept is Christ was not any God. God strongly forbids paradise; anyone who claims Christ or any partner share to His Throne. Hundreds of verses written on this topic only because of people have diverted from the true path. Early Christians have changed the Bible according to power hungry Byzantene ruler & bishops wishes at year around 300 AD. The hypothesis and proof of Christ created fatherless but to be a mere human being is very important to us from this point. Quran persistently renounces the notion of “Trias” and defines it as the only unforgivable sin could be made to Him. Overloving Jesus by his followers brought him to the stage sharing power of God. It remains the same mistake and danger for Muslims to their prophets or imams.
Each of the primary religions teach the same general rule, but perhaps uses different words and stories to give examples of how to live those virtues.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19 The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to his will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of. Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
We as muslims does NOT claim ‘ we are sole candidates for paradise and only muslims entitled to go there ~ all the other believers will go to hell’. On the contrary the Quran says paradise wil be filled with mostly from the previous devotees and less from the latters. That means those people who deserve heaven are from Prophets Adam…, Abrahams’ religion ~jewish, christians ect..~ whom we believe they were also on path of islam. Catholics belive only they are the “good citizens” of paradise!
(56 AL WAQI`AH (The Inevitable) 1- 14),
(2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 136)
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 62
Secondly all the faith devotees will be valued on basis of their belief (not up to Quranic verses). It is even urged that others (jewish for example) must keep their faith if they choose to and seek its rules closely.
62 AL JUMU`AH (Friday). 5
5 AL MA'IDAH (The Repast). 48
16 AL NAHL (The Bees). 93
22 AL HAJJ (The Pilgrimage). 67
SUPPORTING QURANIC VERSES MENTIONED ABOVE;
13 AL RA`D (The Thunder). 36 Those unto whom We gave the Scripture rejoice in that which is revealed unto thee. And of the clans there are who deny some of it. Say: I am commanded only that I serve Allah and ascribe unto Him no partner. Unto Him I cry, and unto Him is my return.
(56 AL WAQI`AH (The Inevitable) 1- 14)
When the Event inevitable Cometh to pass,
Then will no (soul) entertain falsehood concerning its coming.
(Many) will it bring low; (many) will it exalt;
When the earth shall be shaken to its depths,
And the mountains shall be crumbled to atoms,
Becoming dust scattered abroad,
And ye shall be sorted out into three classes.
Then (there will be) the Companions of the Right Hand; what will be the Companions of the Right Hand?
And the Companions of the Left Hand, what will be the Companions of the Left Hand?
And those Foremost (in Faith) will be foremost (in the Hereafter).
These will be those Nearest to Allah:
In Gardens of Bliss:
A NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM THOSE OF OLD,
AND A FEW FROM THOSE OF LATER TIMES.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 62 Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
62 AL JUMU`AH (Friday). 5 The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah: and Allah guides not people who do wrong.
5 AL MA'IDAH (The Repast). 48 To thee we sent the scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed. He would have made you a single people, but (his plan is) to test you in what he hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is he that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
16 AL NAHL (The Bees). 93- If Allah so willed, he could make you all one people: but he leave straying whom he pleases, but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.
22 AL HAJJ (The Pilgrimage). 67 To every people have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: let them not then dispute which thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord: for thou art assuredly on the right way.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19 The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to his will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of. Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/16/07 11:39
A: The truth of this matter is that there is a difference of opinion within the Islamic world about what happened to Jesus. There is one verse of the Quran, in particular, that Muslims dispute over:
"And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs" (Quran, Chapter 23, verse 51, Yusuf Ali translation)
Here's another translation of that same verse:
"And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of valleys, and springs of running water." (Qur'an, Chapter 23, verse 51, Maulvi Sher Ali translation)
Kashmir. The above verse of the Qur'an gives a hint as to precisely where Jesus and Mary gained "shelter." And that is, Kashmir. In fact, it is an exact description of the Valley of Kashmir.
Now, the latter translation was done by a man who belongs to a sect of Islam that the majority of the Muslims hate with a passion: the Ahmadiyya Community. The majority Muslims (more correctly, the majority priests and institutions) disagree with them.
But, as a piece of evidence, I think the Qur'an can be looked upon not necessarily as a scripture, but just as a book. There have been PBS documentaries that showed that the Bible correctly recorded the existence of places that, today, you can't find on the map. But, eventually, archaeologists found those places, thus confirming that particular Biblical verse.
So was the case once with Quran, when some archaeologists used Quran simply as book that gave a clue regarding the existence of a certain civilization (I think the Ad people, as I recall). The archaeologists discovered, I think the ruins of the people of Ad, and this proved that that civilization actually existed.
Now, with regard to the above verse, let's look at the Quran only as a book, not as a scripture. It could very well be that it might have been known that Jesus had travelled to India. And all that Quran did was record what was already known, and what people already talked about.
Indeed, that is what I think happened: Though the verse is now "spiritualized," and, at least to Ahmadiyya Muslims, gives the stamp of God on their particular interpretation of that verse, what is more likely is that a tradition regarding Jesus' escape to Kashmir had long been in existence throughout that ancient world. Then "Allah" put his stamp of approval on that tradition, and it got written down in the Quran.
Whatever one might think about the Kashmir theory, that verse of Quran gives an exact description of Kashmir--the place where the Roza Bal tomb now exists, and where many people believe Jesus is buried. See www.tombofjesus.com .
(Now, before you Sunnis and Ahmadiyyas start duking it out, PLEASE realize that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad DID NOT INVENT the theory of Jesus in Kashmir. The documents relating to a visit of Jesus to Kashmir, after his crucifixion, existed long before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was born. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad invented nothing. All he did was gather some of the documents, and write a book. The oral tradition of the people of Kashmir had long stated that Yuz Asaf and Isa (Jesus) were one and the same person, and that Yuz Asaf lay dead and buried in the Roza Bal tomb).
There is yet another verse of Quran that some people believe points to an association of Jesus with Kashmir, though this is kind of a stretch:
"When the angels said, 'O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a son through a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God." (Quran, Chapter 3, verse 46).
Jesus was never honored in this world, while he was alive. Afterwords, yes. But, while he was live (which, I believe, is what the verse is alluding to) he was NOT honored...or was he?
In Israel he was certainly not honored. Is there any place that he may have been honored, during his life? There are some who believe that Jesus was a Prince who was destined to the throne of Kashmir. They equate Jesus with a Kashmiri king. This belief is not proven yet, though Suzanne Olsson, in her upcoming book (and her previous version), claims to show a connection.
Why would Jesus have been a Kashmir prince, destined for the Kashmiri throne? Beats the hell out of me!! But, when one considers that Jews lived in Kashmir then (had been scattered there); and when one considers that Jesus, according to Notovitch's alleged Jesus Scrolls," came to that area **before** the crucifixion, then perhaps, by SOME "right," it was his destiny to ascend to the throne of Kashmir.
Is it possible that the Bible gives any clue of Jesus' prince-hood, or king-hood? There is an interesting exchange between Pilate and Jesus:
"Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
[34] Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
[35] Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
[37] Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."
In the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus, Jesus never once denied being a king. Naturally, Christian interpretation of "not from hence" is that Jesus meant that his kingdom was "in heaven."
But is that what he was saying? Perhaps there was a double meaning:
1. His Way; his teaching, the kingdom of righteousness that he envisoned for people **here on earth** was spiritually above the current world's kingdoms.
2. He was speaking of **somewhere else.***
He was speaking of Kashmir. Remember, Biblical prophets could also be kings: Solomon, David, etc. These people were wordly kings, in addtion to being prophets, and they had worldly power.
Maybe one day more work will be done in studying Kashmir and Indian documents, as well as the Roza Bal tomb itself. We shall see.
Now, before anyone starts screaming, "Oh, this is ridiculous," I am sorry to have to say this, but if anyone wished to be nasty against Christian doctrine (and I don't), then the same statement could be made about the following:
1. A human being is nailed to a cross (okay, cool)
2. He dies on the cross (okay, cool)
3. After dying, he descends into hell (uh...any pictures?)
4. After descending into hell, this DEAD human being, comes back to life. (uh...dead people DO NOT come back to life. They're DEAD)
5. After this dead man comes back to life, he walks around, and he eats food (fish and a honeycomb). Dead people do not eat--or walk..
6. After coming back to life, walking around, and eating, his physical body floats up, out of sight, into the sky, on its way to heaven
7. This dead-man-come-back-to-life, is now, "sitting at the right hand of God" [I never knew God had hands]. I don't know how we KNOW this. Can we see this through a telescope at Adler Planetarium in Chicago?
8. This dead-man-come-back-to-life, who is now sitting at the right hand of God, "in heaven," is going to COME BACK to this earth, in the "latter days," where he will set up the Kingdom of God.
Now, folks! I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But I find it VERY strange that somebody who would believe that above things, would have the brazen audacity to claim that it is "ridiculous" that someone survived a crucifixion. Well, it wasn't "ridiculous" to an ancient eye witness to a crucifixion, Flavius Josephus:
""I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.” (The Life of Flavius Josephus (Vita), Section 75) .
And it's not "ridiculous" that people could travel far and wide back then, because it was COMMON that it was done. The routes were well-established. Of course, there were the 3 branches of the Silk Road, but other routes also.
It's far less "ridiculous" to believe that a human being physicall survived a crucifixion, than to believe that he died, came back to life, and floated upwards to heaven, in his physical body, and is alive now.
Nate
2. After rising
Name:roy •
Date: 03/16/07 14:16
A: Nate,
There is little evidence the verse of Qoran points to Kashmir. There could be thousands of places with same description. As a devoted muslims in our world we never heard of such a story nor any sect called Ahmadiyya Community in our life or others history book related to Kashmir. So please dont attribute this story or tomb to muslims. The Ahmadiyya comunity may consist of some few thousands of people, we are talking about close to 1,5 billion muslim comunity.
The rest of the claims made to christian belief about bible has nothing to do with reality. Crusification, floating to heaven, coming back to life, etc.. are stories not being verified in Qoran. On the other hand, Everything is possible for a prophet to perform miracles like healing others, let alone living after crusifiction. ( He never was, the person who was crucified made resemblence to Jesus by God) The judgement on basis of a common man is misleading in faith. We believe Jesus was making bird shaped figures from mud, and God willingly they become alive birds, flying. Healing patients, blinds and teaming up with 12 disciples were all mentioned in Qoran.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/16/07 15:16
A: Roy, there are NOT "thousands of places" with ALL of the following markings
1. A tomb, with a grave beneath it that faces the direction Jews bury their dead.
2. An occupant of that tomb, whom oral and written tradition of Kashmir states came to Kashmir, "some 1900 years ago"--the same time Jesus lived
3. A GROWING number of documents (Bhavishya Mahapurana, a Hindu document, the Acta Thomae, a Christian document, the Glass Mirror, a Chinese document, the Tariki-i-Kabir-i-Kashmir, the Rauza-tus-Saf, etc., etc.) that point to a POST-CRUCIFIXION, physical life of Jesus.
4. A physical terrain that parralles the description given in Qur'an
5. Foot carvings in stone, inside the tomb, that have wound marks in them, possibly indicating a crucified victim
6. The oral tradition of the people, especially the older people [the younger people are being influenced by FANATIC sunni fundamentalists], who, when they are asked, "Who lies in this tomb," answer, "Isa." (Jesus)
7. Markings on the Takhat Sulaiman monument, now owned by Hindus, that give that date that Yuza Asaf (Jesus) entered Kashmir,
8. And much more,
The verse of the Quran I quoted is ONE piece of circumstantial evidence, that, when added to the other evidence, leads one to conclude that Jesus survived the crucifixion, and went on to Kashmir, where he ended his days at a ripe old age--dying a natural death.
Also, I am not attributing anything to "Muslims." I am attributing the statement in Quran to WHOEVER WROTE IT. God, right? Allah, right?
We am not interested in Muslim DOCTRINE, which changes with the wind, depending on which Sheikh decides to issue a new fatwah today. I am interested in looking at whatever evidence might exist. And the Quranic verse I quoted gives a clue about a possible place Quran was talking about: Kashmir.
I repeat: That verse is just ONE clue. When taken TOGETHER with other clues, that's what makes the verse strongly fit Kashmir.
Nate
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/19/07 22:49
A: Roy and Nate,
Something that I found significantly considerable in the verse is the sequence , ....
WE MADE , JESUS SON OF MARY AND ....HIS MOTHER, ...SIGN
It's NOT MARY...and ....JESUS SON OF MARY....
Because in the latter case, THE SHELTER GOT ---MIXED UP ----with the SHELTER given to MARY and her UN_BORN SON, JESUS!
And to me it is not a SIGNIFICANT SHELTER, as JEWS were not after KILLING MARY and they did NOT even knew WHO was going to be born!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What do you think?
Name:roy •
Date: 03/23/07 17:54
A: Perceptions ,
I didnt get what you are saying. It is very confusing please try without capital letters, and put clearly.
Nate Spain,
The Quranic verses is at 23,50 saying 023:050
(Hilali-Khan )And We made the son of Maryam (Mary) and his mother as a sign, And We gave them refuge on high ground, a place of rest, security and flowing streams.
(Shakir) And We made the son of Marium and his mother a sign, and
We gave them a shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.
same vagueness in both translation.
There is no specific place found in this description. There is a house which was found by following dream of a nun in 1960 s at Ephesus Izmir. Even Pope visited the place for pilgrimage this year. It is also at high ground uphill about 10 km from Ephesus, and with springs, and concealeled secure area no other house found around. Jesus Christ was also historically recorded that visited Ephesus in his life. It fits all description. Can we say now it is the place instead of Kashmir? They are all non proven yet.
You take one verse of the Quran for true but disregard the rest. Quran sasy Jesus was never criucified. There should be no mark on the feet.
4:157- That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Jesus Christ name in that time was never the ones that you called above. The name should had been one of the below:
Muslims Call Jesus "’Isa." However, His name in Arabic is "Yasu’e" Yeshua. ‘Isa is a twisted name for Jesus. It is actually "Esau". It is also said that "Isa" was the name of a false god!
Quran may not be regarded simply as a book because there are so many archeological findings in it like you mentioned Ad comunity. ( Also Semud, Lowest place on earth near Lake Lut. Egypt paroah Haman... It can not possibly be so simple. You may find details of other findings at below link.
quranmiracles.com
Jesus was honored in this world, and will be honeored till eternity, you say opposite. He is one of the most influential persons of history. What else do you expect from honor. As all honoroble persons, He had some enemies who were defeated repeatedly. He succeded to build his religion although manupulated later.
Nate wrote:" We am not interested in Muslim DOCTRINE, which changes with the wind, depending on which Sheikh decides to issue a new fatwah today."
Rpy wrote: wrong.
Nobody today has the right to issue a fatwah on behalf of muslims or Quran. If someone says something, the best thing up to his undestanding, It is open for criticism.
Quran can not be misunderstood, or wrong interpreted. Some verses includes words has more than double meanings. People may at most disagree on them. Thats all. So it is a false claim accuse islam "which changes with the wind." It is like a rock standing all winds since 600 AD.
Tradition of comunities has added new rules to it with little or no effect to the understanding the pure Quran. Clever minds of future will be able to interprit what it says, as well as today.
Name:Eagle •
Date: 03/25/07 3:36
A: I was impressed by these posts. I am not Muslim or Jewish, but I have some comments:
#1 If there is a GOD (and I believe there is) then he is the same God for all of us regardless of what we think is true or what we think His name is.
#2 If GOD is our creator and our Father, then we are all brothers and sisters. If Islam believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then the Christians, Muslims, and Jews all believe in the same God.
#3 If GOD created Adam in His own image, then God and Adam have the same attributes. If we knew what Adam looked like, we would know what God looks like.
#4 If Jesus Christ is in the express image of his Father (GOD), then we have two examples (Adam and Jesus) of what God is like. From those two witnesses, we infer that God is like a human being. There are lots of people who will debate and be shocked at that thought. But the truth is out there. God, Jesus, and Adam are all human beings.
#5 If God created human beings in His image, then it must be OKAY to be human, because humans are all in the image of GOD.
#6 So... it's Okay for Jesus to be human.
Are you with me so far?
But, you may say, God is immortal. Humans are not. We tend to die. At least, our earthly bodies do. What happened?
#7 Jews, Christians, and Muslims all seem to believe that Adam partook of a certain tree in the Garden against God's commandment and thus changed their original state -- became mortal, subject to death. (Genesis, and the Qur'an Surah II:35) [Note that I have read the Qur'an, but I am a novice at it and I don't know the proper way to reference the chapters, etc. Just using what is in my paperback book. So I apologize if it isn't correct. I hope to be forgiven if it is not.]
#8 So, when Christ was born, he was born to a mortal human being, thus subject to death in the flesh. But his literal Father was God, an immortal being who was NOT subject to death. Christ had the option, he had power from his Father to live forever. As the Islamic View posting suggested, Christ was NOT killed by the Romans or Jews, or anyone else. They could not have killed him as he was immortal. “No man taketh it [my life] from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” (John 10:18.)
#9 So, Christ was certainly capable of dying -- but only at his own discretion. So it seems that Christians and Muslims believe the same thing. I assume that Jews would probably concede that Jesus was capable of dying. It's the coming back to life part that seems to be a hangup with a lot of us.
#10 So let's agree, he died. People watching figured that he died because the Romans hung him on the cross. But now we know that isn't true. He died because he laid down his own life. His family and followers weren't expecting his death so soon, so they didn't have a grave ready and waiting for him. Seems that a friend of the family (Joseph) lent the family a tomb. It was obviously meant to be temporary, the assumption being that as soon as a family tomb was ready, his body would be removed and put there.
#10 Here is where Christians, Jews, and Muslims start to differ. Christians believe that Jesus was divine. He not only had power to lay down his life, but also to take it back again. Jews and Muslims appear to accept Jesus as a righteous teacher and messenger, but not divine and, I assume, that he did not have power to take back his life again.
#11 I can't convince anyone of Jesus' divinity. But let's assume for the sake of argument, that he (through his Father) did have power to take back his life. Do we think that his power only allowed him to take back his broken body BEFORE it decayed? If so, it would seem that there was a limit to his power. But if he was divine, an exact image of his divine Father, then it would stand to reason that his power extended even beyond that.
#12 As Christians, we are asked to believe that the resurrection of Jesus means that we, too, can be resurrected and receive again our bodies. But is that limited to just if our bodies haven't already decayed? If they decay or get destroyed, we lose? Seems like the Egyptians kind of thought that. They tried very hard to prevent their bodies from decaying so that they could eventually come back to life. But what about people whose bodies are burned to ashes? Eaten by wild animals? Decayed into the ground? In the Old Testament Job says "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." (Job 19:26).
#13 So if we believe Job, we now know that even if the body is completely destroyed, God has the power to resurrect and restore our bodies -- without the original copy.
#14 Wow! So even if Christ's original body died and decayed, what does that matter? He had absolute power from his Father to recreate his resurrected (and perfected) body as a separate entity. Let the bones lie where they will. Good news for us. Even if you die, decay, turn to dust, dust turns to dirt, dirt grows grass, grass gets eaten by a cow, and cow goes to McDonald's and gets eaten by 500 other guys, God still has the power to resurrect YOU. In your perfect form. After you are resurrected, your old bones will probably still lie mouldering in the grave. You don't need them and neither did Christ.
#15 Back to the tomb issue. If Christ left his earthly bones behind, then it stands to reason that his family would have buried the bones, even if they knew and interacted with the resurrected Christ in his new body. The new body was immortal, so even though it appears to have flesh and bones, they would never die and thus the bones in the tomb could not be the bones of the resurrected Christ. Only his old, discarded bones.
#16 There's lots more I could say, but the post would get too long (it already is). But I have one question: Why not all try to get together on our beliefs? We really are not that far apart. Why can't the Bible be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly, and the Qur'an also be the word of God -- just to a different people? And also take into consideration the problem of translation? When I read the Qur'an in English I am very aware that the translation is not smooth. And I assume that God gave the revelations in perfect smoothness. But our languages are very different and to me it has lost something in English. I think God can talk to all people and they can all write the things in their own books. That doesn't make the other books wrong. It is just more than one witness. Then we can get together and see that the books really say the same things. And then we can all stop killing each other. Wouldn't that be nice?
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/25/07 15:16
A: Roy, a couple of quick answers first. Firstly, Imam Shaltut was the former Rector of Al-Azhar University, the most respected Islamic university IN HISTORY. He issued an opinion, fatwah, or whatever you call it that said that, in accordance with the Qur'an, JESUS IS DEAD.
Now, whatever **particular** sectarian doctrine you might hold [Islam DOES have sects: shia, sunni, etc], the FACT is that there is a DIFFERENCE OF OPINION, within Islam, and amongst Islamic Scholars. Otherwise, Imam Shaltut would not have stated the following;
"1. The Holy Quran and Sacred sayings of the Prophet of Islam do not support the belief that Jesus is alive in heaven now.
2. The Quranic verses show that God had planned for Jesus to die a natural death and not die at the hand of those trying to crufify him
3. Anyone not believing Jesus to be alive in heaven is not contravening any Islamic belief"
For those interested, you can read the full text of Imam Shaltut's explanation here:
Now-,- of course, you will tell me, "Oh, he was wrong," because his EXPERT ruling perhaps **differs** from yours. So, when I talked about the sheiks and their fatwahs, I was using that as an EXAMPLE that shows that difference of opinion DOES exist in Islam, and, contrary to what you are trying to claim, there does NOT exist unanimity of opinion about the issue of Jesus, as Imam Shaltut's opion demonstrates.
We're not talking about some lightweight Islamic sheikh. We're talking about a man who assumed the leadership of the oldest and most popular Islamic school in history. So, you can go argue with him (if he's still alive).
Now, as regards Ephesus, I don't understand the relevance. I clearly stated that the Qur'an offered this one piece of circumstantial evidence. I also clearly stated that the ACCUMULATION of various bits of circumstantial evidence in Kashmir, ADDED TO the evidence in Qur'an, ALL point to a possible post-crucifixion life of Jesus.
Now, as regards your claim that the Qur'an says he wasn't crucified, OTHER Arabic scholars and translators of the Qur'an say, "He did not **die** as a result of crucifixion.** They claim that when Qur'an says that he was "not crucified," that the word "crucified," as used in Qur'an, means **to be killed as a result of crucifixion,** not merely that he was nailed to the cross. So, since the theory says that he was not killed as a result of crucifixion, this fits in with what some Qur'anic translators say.
This is why, sir, I have NOT relied solely on the Qur'an. There is no reason to. I am not holding the Qur'an up as the definitive book on Jesus. I am not holding the Qur'an up as "the most" sacred book on earth. I am not holding the Qur'an up as a book that, necessarily, was "revealed by God."
I have quoted ONE verse of Qur'an that contains a description of the Valley of Kashmir. As regards Ephesus, does Ephesus contain documents stating ANYTHING? Does Ephesus have an oral tradition stating ANYTHING about Jesus?
So, when I look at the situation, I am NOT merely looking at springs and rivers. Kashmir contains LOTS of other evidence, not the least of which is the very presence of Jewish tribes that had scattered there before the time of Jesus, indicating a reason WHY Jesus would have gone to Kashmir: to continue preaching to those "other sheep" that he said, according to the Bible, he had to preach to.
Now, as regards the NAME of Jesus, which you objected to. This is why one needs to be familiar with the theory. You are not familiar with it, so your comments are made based on ignorance of the theory.
There are books (see Jesus in Heaven on Earth, by Khawaja Nazir Ahmad, in which he quotes these histories) which state that Jesus, after the crucifixion, eventually arrived in a placed called Nisibis (Nasibain). And it is in Nisibis where he adopted the name Yuz Asaf, which some say translates to, "Jesus the Gatherer, " the word "Yuz" being a corruption of the name Yeshuwa.
These books state that he adopted that name for the purpose of hiding his identity, so that he could travel more safely en route to India. Now Qur'an doesn't say a WORD about this. But the Qur'an doesn't mention a LOT of things, because it's not a history book. For such things, we have to DIG.
Anyway, there is no contradiction about the name Yuz Asaf, according to the books (some of them written by Muslims, by the way, who recorded these oral and writtten traditions) that mention Jesus as being Yuz Asaf.
You say that Jesus was honored in this world. Not during his life time, at least not in "Israel." He was DISHONORED in Israel, by his own people in fact.
As a Muslim, I am surprised that you would say that he was "honored" in this world. Honored? Is it an HONOR, in Islam, for a human being to be elevated to the position of Allah? Are the Christians "honoring" Jesus by calling him God, or the literal "son" of God? Is that honoring him by putting that idea on him?
But, one can, I agree, state that he was "honored" because he has a couple billion humans, supposedly, who believe he's God, son of God, whatever. I'll agree with that.
In my view, he found MORE honor by being saved from death on the cross, and then continuing his ministry in Kashmir.
Another thing: In the Garden of Gethsemene, according to the Bible, Jesus prayed intensely, in agony, asking his "Father," God, to "take this cup away from me." He was asking to NOT be nailed to a cross; to NOT die on the cross.
So, in my mind there should be no surprise that Jesus could have been nailed to the cross, and then also survived that ordeal. Other prophets were saved by God after praying. Why not Jesus?
I can't debate with you about about ISLAMIC ideas about Jesus and death on the cross. Because Muslims are divided on that, despite what you say. Some Muslims even have what they call the "Substitution Theory," in which they say that before Jesus was put on the cross, God caused the Romans to pick somebody else who they THOUGHT was Jesus, and hang him instead.
Other Muslims say that he wasn't put on the cross PERIOD, and that the Substitution Theory is false. Other Muslims claim that Jesus WAS nailed on the cross, but he was saved from death.
That is an argument to be resolved amongst Muslims, not by me. My point was merely to show that ONE piece of evidence in Qur'an seems to be related to Kashmir.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/26/07 6:40
A: Nate Spain,
Which one of the below translations (including Ahmediya sect Sher Ali; and last 4 non-muslim)has said that He was crucified. Muslims unanimously agree that The person who was crucified has been made similar to Jesus by God. This is no doubt.
I dont care as a muslim, which university sheik AL AZHAR in Egypt how interpret what part of Quran. We are not Catholics who believe Pope never can make mistake.
We see Al Azhar univ doctrine as bigotry sometimes shameful burdening islam. They also have very valuable professors. We in islam comunity are like free-speach adhering American society. There is no harm in this, we just debate to find out the truth.
Pickthall And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Yusuf Ali That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Hilali-Khan And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) [][] []]:
Shakir And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Sher Ali And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
Khalifa And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.
Arberry and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;
Palmer and for their saying, 'Verily, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God'.... but they did not kill him, and they did not crucify him, but a similitude was made for them. And verily, those who differ about him are in doubt concerning him; they have no knowledge concerning him, but only follow an opinion. They did not kill him, for sure!
Rodwell And for their saying, "Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God." Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him,
Sale and have said, verily we have slain Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God; yet they slew him not, neither crucified him, but he was represented [by one] in his likeness; and verily they who disagreed concerning him, were in a doubt as to this [matter], and had no [sure] knowledge thereof, but followed only an [uncertain] opinion. They did not really kill him;
Kuran has nothing to do with Kashmir, dont relate your false claim with the MOST SACRED BOOK ON EARTH (bcs you say opposite).
I still believe Jesus ha sbeen one of the most honored man in history of human being. He is at least honored correctly in the hearts of 2 billion muslims, let alone billions of christians as a messenger of God. They and muslim all agree Jesus was word of God to Mary, given birth fatherless, same as Adam. The starting of debate is at he is son of God or not. We say He is not son of God. This is all.
There is no debate within islamic society whether is He crucified. To be a muslim you should accept all Quranic verses by heart, including 4:157.
Are you satisfied?
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/26/07 9:47
A: Roy, this is not working. Because what you want to turn this to is a debate about MUSLIM BELIEF. I am not a Muslim, Roy, okay?
But, I will say this. How on EARTH can you make the claim that,
"There is no debate within islamic society whether is He crucified." My God, Roy, that just is not so. You have an ENTIRE GLOBAL ISLAMIC COMMUNITY called the Ahmadiyya Community which swears up and down, USING QUR'AN that Jesus WAS crucified, but that he survived the crucifixion.
Now, I realize that some sunni Muslim authorities have "declared" that the Ahmadiyyas are not Muslim. But, such declarations are WORTHLESS. And do you know why? Because every sect of Islam has seclared SOME OTHER SECT to be "non-Muslim." Go read your OWN history.
The sunnis, at one time, declared shias to be "non-Muslim." The shias, at one time, declared sunnis to be "non-Muslim." Now, today, you sunnis are "declaring" the Ahmadiyyas to be "non-Muslim." I
I ain't gonna get into that debate. The Ahmadiyyas, Roy, present arguments, BASED ON ARABIC, and based on THEIR understanding of the Arabic language of the Qur'an; and those arguments--using the root meanings of Arabic--are that Jesus WAS crucified, that is, he was NAILED TO THE CROSS. But that he did not DIE as a result of the crucifixion.
So don't tell me that there is 100% agreement amongst Muslims about what happened to Jesus, because that ain't so, Roy. Personally, I'm not going to dismiss the arguments of the Ahmadiyyas, as they claim to number some 100,000,000 Muslims or so on the planet.
But, we can forget about the numbers. I have read THEIR version, in their translations (Maulana Sher Ali, Muhammad Ali, Malik Ghulam Farid). Also, Roy, I have read Yusuf Ali's translations, and the other translations that you offer.
In addition, Roy, I have read the COMMENTARIES--what you guys call "tafsirs"--relating to this Jesus business. The reason I read them, Roy, is because I have an interest in the historical Jesus. I didn't read them to see who is the "right" Muslim.
There is NO reason that I should believe sunni interpretation over ahmadiyya, or shia, or anything else. Yes, the Ahmadiyya interpretation supports the view that I believe, and that ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE THE AHMADIYYAS CAME INTO EXISTENCE.
The fact is, Roy, that the documents in Kashmir that state that Jesus came there existed long before Ghulam Ahmad opened his mouth and made his claims. I am not interested in his claims, nor am I interested in trying to find out which Islamic group has the "correct" interpretation of Qur'an.
Why? Because you guys can't figure that out yourselves, let alone me. I'm not an Arabic scholar. But sunnis, shias, and Ahmadiyyas ALL have Arabic scholars. The only reason I agree with the Ahmadiyyas on this Jesus business is because there are OTHER DOCUMENTS, such as the Bhavishya Mahapurana--a Hindu document--that support the Jesus-in-Kashmir theory.
There is also the Grugtha Thams Chand, a Tibetan document that agrees with the Jesus-in-Kashmir theory. Get it, Roy? What I am SAYING is that the understanding of those verse of Qur'an offered by the Ahmadiyyas are in agreement with NON-MUSLIM books that place Jesus in Kashmir.
Understand? It's detective work, Roy: You look everywhere.
Now, as regards your belief about all Muslims agreeing on this subject, I will not quote from the Ahmadiyya translations--which are availble on the web for all to see, at alislam.org. And you will see that all Muslims ARE NOT in agreement about Jesus and the crucifixion. These commentaries are commentaries about Chapter Al-Nisa, verse 158. The one that begins, "And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary..." Here is what the Ahmadiyya commentary of that verse says:
"Ma salabu-hu means, they did not cause his death on the cross. Salab being a well-known manner of killing. They say Salaba al-Lissa, i.e., he put the thief to death by putting him on the cross. The verse does not deny the fact of Jesus's being nailed to the cross, but denies his having died on it." (The Holy Qur'an, Arabic Text and English Translation with Commentary, Edited by Malik Ghulam Farid, Published unde the auspices of Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the 4th Successor of the founder of the Ahmadiyya Community, page 232, Note 697).
So, Roy, PLEASE don't come here telling me that ALL Muslims are in agreement regarding whether or not Jesus was nailed to the cross, because they DO NOT agree on that unanimously.
The Ahmadiyyas boast Arabic scholars just as the sunnis and shias. In fact, I personally met a few of them, one named Maulana Azhar Hanif. So, what would you do now? Hold a CONTEST to see which Arabic scholar understands Quranic Arabic better? Not me, Roy.
I see their translation as agreeing with what Nicholas Notovitch found; agreewing with the Bhavishya Mahapurana; agreeing with the Grugtha Thams Chand; agreeing with the Tarikh-i-Kabir-i-Kashmir; agreeing with The Glass Mirror; agreeing with the Acta Thomae, which is a Christian doctrined, banned by the Church, and which places Jesus IN KASHMIR long after the crucifixion.
This is DETECTIVE work, NOT **religious work.** I am not interested in proving which religion, or which sect, is correct. I am doing DETECTIVE work. I am not concerned whether Ahmadiyya translation is correct or not. My interest in their translation comes from the fact that their belief about Jesus corresponds to beliefs that existed long before the Ahmadiyya Community existed--long before 1889, when Ghulam Ahmad founded that movement.
The Bhavishya Mahapurana, Roy, existed long before Ghulam Ahmad was born. And the Bhavishya Mahapurana places Jesus in Kashmir, speaking with King Shalivahana, long after the crucifixion.
The other evidence I see are the foot carvings, inside the Roza Bal tomb, that show WOUND MARKS IN THE FEET--crucifixion marks. Now, such foot carvings existed all over Kashmir. But, as noted by Aziz Kashmiri and Dr. Fida Hassnain, the ONLY foot carving in Kashmir that shows wound marks in the feet are the ones inside the Roza Bal.
And the elder people of Kashmir, when asked, "Who is inside this tomb," respond, "Isa." Hear it, Roy!!?? The name "Isa" is tha name used for Jesus by Muslims, as well as by Hindus in their book, the Bhavishya Mahapurana.
The reason that the elders in Kashmir say that "Isa" is in that tomb is because THAT is the tradition handed down to them by their parents: that Yuz Asaf is, in fact, Jesus. And this tradition existed LONG BEFORE MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD was even born.
So, those carvings of feet; the oral tradition of the people of Kashmir; the written documents, written both by Muslims and non-Muslims; the Quranic verse that says that Jesus and Mary were taken to an "elevated" land of rivers, etc.; the Ahmadiyya view that Jesus WAS crucified, but that he survived, ALL add up to be strong evidence, in my view, that Jesus WAS crucified, but that he survived that crucifixion.
I think I quoted, elsewhere, from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian of the time, where Flavius WITNESSED one of his friends SURVIVE a crucifixion. Anyone wishing that quote, I'll reproduce it again. Just ask.
So, that is yet ANOTHER piece of evidence: Josephus eye-witness account, that he recorded in his book, in which he begged to have his friends taken down from the cross. Two of his friends died, but the third RECOVERED.
Again, for emphasis: I am not interested in determining which Muslim Arabic scholar and translator of the Quran is correct and which ain't. That ain't my business. I business is to collect evidence--for my own sake, that's all. For my own personal interest.
Your business is to support YOUR PARTICULAR understanding of that verse, that understanding, of course, NOT being one that all Muslims agree on. You might wish to dismiss 100,000,000 Ahmadiyyas and claim that they are "not Muslim," as I realize that many sunnis do. But that ain't my business. I'm not in that sectarian contest--not interested.
Again: Please don't assume that I'm not aware. I am aware that there DOES exist difference of opinion. I know better, Roy. Thank you for this exchange. :-)
Peace and Blessings to you and yours,
Nate Spain
Name:roy •
Date: 03/26/07 20:05
A: Nate Spain,
Thanks for your long letter, It is my privilage to address you.
I have no ill feelings against Ahmediyyas, I dont know any clue about them. I heard from you now. It may be my ignorance. There have been so many sects throughout history that I lost connection. Some faded away some are newly emerging, I dont care any of them including shii and sunni. I am not any of them but a plain muslim. It is totally against the first teachings of Mohammed and against the Quran to devide into sects. However it seem to be inevitable to have some different views. As they are not mature enough to solve differences in peace they prefered to alienate themselves from others. Sometimes let alone call each other non-muslim, they fought, result was killing Hz. Mohammeds (Saas) 2 sons, and 2 successors.
Nobody can claim other as non muslim. Besides, being a muslim is not a free pass to heaven. Nor all non-muslims will go to hell directly. It is not end of the world. Believing one God having good virtues in earth, will be valued accordingly in heaven. This is all we muslims believe.
You by yourself decide whether Ahmediyya or any person adheres İslam or not.
They must believe in:
-God not adding beside nobody else as spare or replacement deity.
-All Prophets and their books.
-Quran in full text, non exempting even one single letter. It is God word.
-Resurrection day and hell/heaven
-Angels
-Destiny is created by God
If your Ahmediyyas doesn’t believe one of the above they are not muslim. Period.
There is no debate about Jesus crucification. Believe me, they dont bother about it as there are many other topics, as that one was openly written in Quran adding that no-muslims are in doubt about it. They never crucified him. This is enough for us. We dont know whereabouts, or how He died.
However there is big debate about, ( I dont believe this theory) :Jesus will come on earth near future as a last resort of human to be in peace, all world nations will live under his kingdom for 40 years and he will die again. He will come to Damascus, İstanbul, or and other islamic city as a muslim. There will be Mehdi who will help him build his new order (Many sect leaders already believed themselves the Mehdi) This will be one of numerous sign of dooms day.
The above story has been added to muslim hadith books in order to bring christians into same line with muslims, create empathy, of course give power to sect leaders who has produced these stories. One of them was exported from here, he is living in USA today, he is powerful man, has banks, tv channels, thousand schools, newspapers, thousands of foolish or naive followers, etc.. He was sued to capture state organizations, found resort to flee.Or he was after bigger ambitions.
On the other hand, christians has been influenced by muslims, by giving up claim of three gods~Trias, trinity, instead they say One God in three, by pressure of muslims about this absurdity.
Whatever belief you hold I respect, “Truth shall make us free” as christians say.
I dont insist on muslim belief, every body has his/her conscious. My job is to clearly defend what is my faith.
May God be with you.
Eagle, congradulations for making such detailed well understood remarks I want to add my opinions tomorrow.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/26/07 22:46
A: Hi
Roy and Nate , I just discovered the thread, AGAIN!
'll join after going thru it.
Eagle , cool contribution!
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/27/07 8:14
A: Well, I was raised a Christian. Now I am no longer Christian.
But since I was raised Christian, I have some interest in Jesus. When I was Christian, I began to realize that the story that my Christian teachers were telling me was false.
And I began to realize this on my own, without reading any books. I began to realize that it was UNJUST that some human being would be chosen to be KILLED, on a cross, for MY sins. I began to realize this injustice when I was a child.
And this is a common story, Roy, not just mine. There are many Christians who, at one time or another, begin to **feel** or sense the injustice of a doctrine that claims that some man was MURDERED for my sins. and what made it worse, in my mind, was that this man was the son of God, and that God would put his son through that ordeal.
So, what happened to me, Roy, is that after I began to realize this great injustice, I started looking around to see if I could find answers. The first place I looked was the Bible. And right there, staring me in the face, was the fact that Jesus had survived the crucifixion.
It was there all the time. But I didn't begin to see it until I stepped away from the INDOCTRINATION, and just read the Bible on my own, by myself, without anybody telling me anything.
And I saw it, Roy:
"Feel me and see that I am flesh and bones. For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have."
That statement was supposedly made by Jesus days after the crucifixion. The statement is clear. The statement has NO religious connotation whatsoever. The statement says NOTHING about Jesus being a supernatural being, or God. It's a clear statement in which he was telling his doubting disciplies, "I'm alive. I survived the crucifixion."
This understanding came to me while I was Christian, with no help from anybody but THE UNIVERSE. Well, then I started looking around, trying to find other things. I read Sconfield's, "The Passover Plot," decades ago.
I read other things. The I heard about various views, here and there.
And those views coincided with what I **felt**; what I sensed. So, the issue became important to me. Because the injustice of that doctrine was massive. What was being said was intolerable.
Also, there was notthing in world society, that I could see, that showed any practical positive result from Jesus dying on the cross. What result is there?
The Christian teachers were telling me, "He died for the sins of the world." I mean, what does that MEAN? The sins of the world, today, are manifold. The world is AWASH in sin.
And Jesus' death on the cross DID NOT prevent that. So, what I was left with was nothing but an emotional statement, "The Lord died for our sins," as the preachers would shake their voices and conjur up all kinds of emotion (which they appeared to equate to spirituality).
What does it MEAN for some being to die for the sins of the world? It means NOTHING.
Then I began to read more, and I disocvered that before Jesus, some 30 saviors that died for the world existed. It's the truth. All over the planet, long before Jesus, there had been a savior, somewhere, who died for the sins of the world; who was born of a virgin; who decended into hell, rose from the dead, and was coming back.
Looking around the web, Roy, and you will find a list of those "saviors." If 30 prior saviors died for the sins of the world, what was the need of Jesus coming to try the same thing again? I mean, if it didn't work 30 times, it wasn't going to work 31.
That belief, Roy, is empty. The GOOD part of Christianity is the emphasis on charity, etc., that gave us Christian schools, hospitals, charitable organizations, elderly homes, etc., all over the world.
But that had nothing to do with Jesus dying on the cross. It had to do with other doctrines THAT HE TAUGHT.
Well, again, my thing has been that I am curious to know something about what happened to him. Because, quite frankly, I feel that the Christian doctrine is kind of...messed up.
I am always baffled when a Christian, after I tell him my feelings, trys to sit me down to EXPLAIN why I should feel GOOD about somebody dying for me. Why should I feel happy about that?
That's BAD. I don't want anybody to die for me. That's depressing, not satisfying. I'll stand up for MY OWN sins.
I also kind of think that putting all the sins of humanity on Jesus is vulgar. Let the man rest. If he ever did really exist, he's dead. Let him rest. Let his soul rest.
I hope his body is found.
Regards,
Nate
Name:Red •
Date: 03/27/07 10:06
A: Nate, you make some wonderful points. There are alot of folks who feel the need to turn inward and quest for rationality, Me included. It's not an easy task considering how intrenched and automatic religion and it's doctorines are in a society. I commend you for your search of truth. It is at times a very scary quest to be out there all on your own looking for the light in the most remote nooks and crannies of life. Yet ,it is reward like no other when a person discovers the first real proof of somethimg he always knew deep down was the case , even though it had been hidden away.(this starts in childhood i believe).
The subject of religion, Christianity in particular, in my opinion ,it is the philisophical basis on which it is founded that is flawed. I can say the same of Judaism, and Islam because the basic foundation is the same. This foundation begins in the beggining with the idea that mankind is, by his very nature EVIL. This one idea begat many diffrent snowball a' rollin. Mankind is inherently evil, and therfore we need a fix: enter religion.
While it is common knowledge that man isnt 'Perfect', it is also a mistake to attempt to define 'Perfection'. If we are imperfect, How can we define it? There is no way. Therfore, if we can not define perfection, we can not define 'Imperfection'. It is here that the definition of Evil is placed on mankind because he can not define perfection.
I believe Man places way too much value to that idea. There is no such thing as perfection. It is a man made linear idea that has no definition. Perfection becomes "indefinite"and " incomprehencible". However, he places the value on a particular god, and then strives to be closer to that god and therfore perfection.
I beleive it is percisely at this point where things get stupid. (excuse the vernacular, but that is what it is). It becomes a copeing mechanism.
If / when everyone is standing/kneeling/ groveling/sitting/squating/ in the presence of the creator in some distant time that only operates in the far off fuzzy realm of death, they may very well find their God not to be to their expectations.
In the physics of this world in which mankind credits God as the author of it's laws, you can see everywhere the goings on that does not meet human definition of perfection. Yet, the creator we believe, drew up the blueprints,signed the contract, and built it.
God may be perfect, but not to religious definition.
How many times have we heard the cop out concerning some question that is absolutely un-answerable, with " God works in mysterious ways", or " He has a plan, and we cant fathom it".? What kind of answer is this? Is it possibe that the laws The creator made are not perfect, and therfore he is not? Maybe he is learning as he goes too. Who knows. But one thing is sure, we only show our imperfection as Humans by appliying some value of perfection of God.
I think as Humans , this is the biggest mistake we ever made.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/27/07 12:17
A: Red, it's getting dangerous now at this forum!! :-) You're gonna start us to THINKING here! :-)
Your words are almost frightening--in a good way.
"It is at times a very scary quest to be out there all on your own looking for the light in the most remote nooks and crannies of life..."
Scary is one word. Death-defying is another. And when I say "death-defying," I don't mean simply physical death.
I have **lost** friendships. I am somewhat, in fact, isolated. I do not have a real community of any type--not really. And it is because I made the mistake [it now seems like a mistake] of being such a **purist** in my need to "be right" that, somehow, I ended up virtually alone, except for my wife of 20 years.
One can see precisely why most people have the instinctive **survival sense** to NOT question a damned thing. They will go to church, knowing full well that some of the doctrines [some of them] are bogus. But, for the **real** need to stay connected, they will tolerate it.
I once witnessed an anti-religious ideologue preaching to some guy about the falsehood of religion. Eventually, the guy looked at this ideologue and said, "Shit, you're preaching to the wrong man. Hell, I just go to church for my children and family. I never believed that shit that preacher talks."
The ideologue stood there--no more audience. I would venture to say that there are millions of "Christians" out there like that--people who KNOW how dangerous it is to cut oneself off from one's culture and community.
I swear to you, for some reason, I had NO idea how dangerous it is. And I had no idea that I would, eventually, as I am now, find myself virtually alone, somehow unable to connect. Not because I'm an ideologue. But because **for so long** I'd been on "the path" [whatever that is], rather than just being NORMAL and busting out a brewskie, looking at a football game!! I took the shit to the extreme--this discovery of truth.
But guess what happens after you "find the truth." I'll tell you. You're welcomed into a community of people "who have found the truth." And they're all smiling, and you're smiling, and everybody's happy because they all, "have the truth."
So, years--sometimes decades--go by. But because of ***your nature***, you start beginning to recognize something: that your group DON'T have "the" truth. That there are parts of its doctrines, or interpretations of those doctrines, that don't seem right.
And you're not doing this to be negative. You're actually studying the stuff--and studying hard. Then one day you go around the group. And everybody's smiling. And they're talking about part of the doctrine. And then you make the mistake of opening up your mouth. And nobody's smiling anymore--they're looking at YOU, because you have "abandoned" the truth.
No you haven't!! But that's how they see it. Then, you're alone--again.
I'll give you a classic example that a Muslim truth seeker told me. In Islam, there is the teaching of Muhammad, supposedly, where he said that keeping a dog in the house is un-Islamic, because "the angels will not enter the home in which a dog exists." This isn't in Quran, but in alleged sayings of Muhammad.
So, to this day, no "good Muslim" will own a dog and keep it in his home. But here's the rub. Today, in our modern age, it has been discovered that dogs have the natural ability to predict, 2 hours in advance, the onset of an epileptic fit in a human. And trainers have now trained dogs to enhance that ability.
So there are people who have epilepsy who have these dogs that can help them to LIVE, and to live decently. Now this brings up a troubling question for Muslims, and it is this. Islam teaches that God is the "controller of the causes of life and death."
And we have a case here were God has ALLOWED a dog to SHARE in this attribute--this attribute of having some control over life and death. So, why would "the angels," whatever those are, NOT come into a home where God Himself has ALLOWED a dog to SAVE A PERSON'S LIFE.
This shit is BACKWARDS!! But NO Muslim will admit that that alleged teaching of Muhammad's is false. They can't do it, because they have...the truth. And "the truth" DOESN'T CHANGE. And if it DOES change, then how can it be...the truth.
They wouldn't THINK to ask, "Well...Maybe Muhammad DIDN'T say that." No, HE SAID IT! And you better not have a dog in your house. So, if you have epilepsy, TOUGH SHIT!! Just DIE!!
And this inability fo CHANGE is what causes people to LEAVE religion. I would venture to say that religious people are more responsible for creating atheists than anything else.
Now, here's something very funny I heard about this dog business. And I don't know if it's true, because I don't know Arabic. Maybe our Muslim friend here, Roy, can confirm this. truth, check this out!!
Now, the person who claimed that Muhammad said this thing about dogs not being allowed in the house was a guy named Abu Hurairah, who was supposedly a companion of Muhammad's, I think.
And HE is the one, in the sayings of Muhammad, who CLAIMED that he hard Muhammad say that there should be no dogs in the house. Now check this out. I was told by a Muslim that there was something interesting about Abu Hurairah. Guess what he was. HE LOVED CATS AND HATED DOGS!!
The implication being that Muhammad DID NOT ban dogs in the house, but that Abu Hurairah LIED, only because he--Abu Hurairah--loved cats, and hated dogs! So he, one guy told me, purposely lied in stating that Muhammad had banned dogs, knowing full well that anything Muhammad said would be followed.
But that doesn't end it, and this is where Roy will have to come in and help me. I was told that the name, "Abu Hurairah," actually means, "Father of the Cats."
Now, if that is so, then why is it not POSSIBLE that the "Father of the Cats" would have concocted a saying of Muhammad, simply because he--Abu Hurairah--hated dogs.
Imagine that people BUILD AN ENTIRE RELIGIOUS LIFE based on such things! Really!! I got a Muslim friend--very educated. Has degrees and all that. Guy told me that he would not visit me anymore if I ever bought a dog. This is my "friend." I would lose a FRIEND if I got a dog!! I like dogs. I like cats too.
I'll give you another example. The sheikhs in Islam claim that female circumcision is Islamic. But it is claimed that Aisha, Muhammad's wife, said, "When the Messenger of Allah wanted to sexually arouse me, he would fondle me." WHAT WAS HE FONDLING!!!!!
If Muhammad had sacntioned female circumcision, WHAT WAS HE FONDLING!!??
Now, don't get me started with CHRISTIANITY!! Or Hinduism, with its caste system, and RACISM. Sheesh!! It's enough to make you want to go to the mountains, in a cave, and HIDE!!
I feel like I'm in a cave anyway, even as I walk out in the streets, fully in the open.
Yesterday, for the first time in 37 years, I busted a cold one, and drank that sucker with my brother and a friend. Yet, my Muslim friends would tell me, "Allah forbid!!", while at the SAME time telling me that ALL the Jews in Israel should be driven to the sea; or I can't have a dog in my house.
I mean, which is worse? Busting me out a brewski!!?? Or wishing that all Jews DIE?? No, not all Muslims think like that. Maybe most don't. But the UGLY is so bad, amongst those that do, that it's enough to MAKE a man drink!!
Had I not had to leave, I would have joined my brother in some wine!
"The truth." We got to "find" the truth. As if it's hiding somewhere. What can be more TRUTHFUL than a clear blue sky; or a sunny day, or the trees in a forest, or the walk of a female?
Shit, we got truth all around us--everywhere.
This brings up yet another thing about Jesus' alleged death for the sins of the world. When I ask Christians why God would kill his son for me, they answer, "To show his love."
Wow! I repeat: The sky, the smell of the air after a rainstorm, the beauty of a waterfall, birds that fly up in the sky, the lakes, butterflies, leaves, trees, mountains, meadows, rivers, lakes, oceans, our food that grows in the earth, good company.
So, after creating all these things that clearly demonstrate God's love for us, those things were not enough to show that love? You mean, he had to KILL his son...to show that he loved us?
I mean, you came over to my house, I opened the door, sat you down, called my son in the the living room, pulled out a gun and blew his head off; and then, jerking in shock, you went, "MY GOD...WHAT...WHAT...WHY..."
And I answered, "I just wanted to show you how much I love you as a friend."
I mean, you'd probably think, "Damn, a cold beer would have sufficed!!"
Regards,
Nate
Name:Red •
Date: 03/27/07 16:10
A: " thus my pattern of relationship to the world was already pre-figured: as a child I felt myself to be alone, and today I am still solitary, because I know things and must hint at things which other people do not know- and usually do not even WANT to know."--- C.G. Jung
His search made him a lonely Man. It sounds as if your quest has brought the same...... Well, welcome to the cave.
I take solace in the fact I live in a forest. I say two words to my wife, and it confuses her, But the trees are great listeners....
Name:Red •
Date: 03/27/07 16:11
A: P.S. Silver maples anyway..... The Pines like to make thier own noise.....
Name:roy •
Date: 03/27/07 20:26
A: Eagle, I like your style,comments, especially final say.
I put my opinons as the following relevant to your post. I may be mistaken deeply, I neither claim proficiency nor represent İslam. These are humble thoughts of a plain common muslim.
#1 We agree on God exists and has various names, in all languages, basic language is non-verbal from heart and emotional. He is called, felt and known by His abilities, acts, doings. We muslims pray Him over 100 names all represent His different Qualities.
#2 As long as we can intermarry and have child as a result, we are biologically coming from the same root. Human being is one kind of creature. This indicates that we are brothers and sisters, no matter how hard some people claim, they are from superior race, blue blood, noble anchestory / generation tree from prophets, even as Japans believe their kings coming from sun or God. It remained as a shame to our human being. It was a reason of Egyptian paroahs extinction.
#3 God didnt create Adam from His own image, but He created him from his soul.
We believe ;
38:71-72 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: I am about to create man from clay:
When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.
This shows that He didn’t resemble to Adam by shapely fashion but could be by soul. He says at another sentence that Soul (Spirit)
17: 85- They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: the spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)
As a result we can say from islamic perspective, we dont know the shape of God but can guess about His spirit that He breath into us from. We also add that He is apart from all weakness, inabilities attributed for mankind. He is apart from bad and He is just Perfect for all qualities, Omnipotent.
#4 God never resembles to human being nor there is a way to compare Him anyway to us. We can not say anything that we dont know about Him. It is actually forbidden to us.
2: 169- For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of Allah that of which ye have no knowledge.
7: 33- Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; since and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
10: 68- They say, Allah hath begotten a son glory be to him he is Self-Sufficient his are all things in the heavens and on earth no warrant have ye for this say ye about Allah what ye know not?
#5 #6 Humans are not in the image of God. The concept of “Jesus was a human” is acceptable to us. He was different than mankind much more similarly created like Adam, and son of Zekaria, Yahya (John) who was given birth to a very old parents.
#7 You are correct in citing from Quran please go ahead, keep up good work.
2:35- We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
#8 His literal father was not God. Christ was the word of God to Virgin Mary. Has not been granted eternity. However we believe prophets, like martyrs do not die, They are alive in another form of living, we dont see them they see us. In addition, prophets corpses do not perish as regular human being, they remain as fresh as same day of their death. (This is claimed by hadiths)
You may find below all the relevant perception of Jesus Christ by islamic view: These are absolutely believed, compulsory verses to be recognised as muslim. There are supplementary hadiths (supposedly words of Prophet Mohammed (sas). We cant guarantee the correctness.) therefore weak beliefs, not necessarily accepted by all muslims, nor a requisite.
2: 71- O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
FOR THOSE WHO WANTS TO LEARN HOW IS JESUS CHRIST & MARY AND CHRISTIANS ARE OBSERVED IN QURAN PLEASE STUDY THE FOLLOWING VERSES:
110- Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount my favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs. And the Unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
111- And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
112- Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a Table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have Faith."
113- The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon"; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (to stand) upon." Yet they (profess to) study the (same) book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
114- Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us- for the first and the last of us- a solemn festival and a Sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."
116- And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men, "Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
120- Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah - that is the (only) Guidance," Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor Helper against Allah.
13- The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah the which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in Religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
135- They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
136- Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).
14- From those, too, who call themselves Christians, we did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
14- O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah? Said the Disciples, We are Allah's helpers! Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.
140- Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah
