Name:FilledwithHope •
Title: Filled with Hope •
Date posted: 04/16/07 12:11
Q: I am Jewish. I obviously don't believe in Jesus even though countless Christians have tried to convert me. But, my great hope is that somehow through this we may learn more abut Jesus so that Christians and Jews can somehow come closer together. I know that may be too much to ask. Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity. This past weekend was the memorial holiday of those who died in the Holocaust. Jews across the world lit candles in memory of those murdered. The Holocaust happened because Christians allowed it to happen by blaming Jews for killing Jesus over the centuries until the hate built up to such a fury that it allowed millions and millions of innocent Jews to be killed. Today anti-semitism is on the rise throughout the Middle East and Europe. It's even on the rise in the Americas, again spread by people who claim to be good Christians and Muslims. It's spread also when people claim Jews can not get into Heaven unless they believe in Jesus. It's spread in subtle ways when Christians in the name of free speech try to convert people across the land in colleges and neighborhoods. While they don't want to spread anti-semitism, the message is clearly that Judaism is an inferior religion. My prayer and my hope is that we will learn more through this discovery. I believe in my heart that it is the Jesus family tomb. I hope that people will keep open minds on all sides and not try to knock it down because it goes against their Christian faith. Jesus was a Jew. He would have cried and cried over the millions of Jewish deaths in the name of Christianity. After the death of Jesus, people introduced many myths and pagan traditions that were not at all consistent with what Jesus taught and were flat out lies. My hope is that some of these myths may be stripped away and that Christians will get closer to Jews, and that Jews will learn something about Christians too. I know it's a long shot., but we can hope and pray for peace and love which is what Jesus wanted. Let's stop saying Judaism is inferior and let's learn about Jesus, the Jew. That's my hope and my prayer.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/16/07 19:26
A: Hi FilledwithHope,
I don't feel that Judaism is an inferior religion at all.Actually it is a very historic one.Also the Christians had played their hand in the destruction of more than just the Jews over the centuries.Many pagans were exacuted during Christianity's growth and power struggle.The most recent atrocoties namely The Holocaust was caused by the Nazis during World War Two.My parents lived in France during the Nazi occupation.
People fear what they don't understand then try to destroy it so they don't get destroyed by it.Or incorperate ideas into their own cultures like including the pagan customs and to convert with intimidation a gullable populace.Finding the Jesus Family Tomb was the best thing that ever happened.It makes Him human.
I hope and pray that at some point in time all humans will learn to get along inspite of differences.
May you find peace and may your future be filled with bright blessings.
Panluna
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/17/07 0:50
A: Filledwithhope,
"Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity. This past weekend was the memorial holiday of those who died in the Holocaust."
Sorry, but Hitler was the furthest thing from a Christian. Hitler was an evolutionist, along with Staline. Why do you think he tried to eradicate the Jewish kind, he felt they were weak and inferior, taking "natural selection" into his own hands. Survival of the fittest.
“Thus there results the subjection of a number of people under the will, often of only a few persons, a subjection based simply upon the right of the stronger, a right which, as we see in Nature, can be regarded as the sole conceivable right, because it is founded on reason.”
—Adolf Hitler
A review of the writings of Hitler and contemporary German biologists finds that Darwin’s theory and writings had a major influence on Nazi policies…. In the formation of his racial policies, [Hitler] relied heavily upon the Darwinian evolution model, especially the elaborations by Spencer and Haeckel. They culminated in the “final solution,” the extermination of approximately six million Jews and four million other people who belonged to what German scientists judged were “inferior races” (Bergman,1992, p. 109).
Darwin helped to further brutalize mankind through providing scientific justification for immoral acts upon the earth providing no repercussions. Take god out of the picture, and there's nobody to answer to, so you can do whatever you want and not have to pay for it.
Remember the Columbine shooting, notice how the media didn't like to talk much on the fact that they were wearing shirts that read "Natural Selection", and they walked around to each student and asked them if they believed in god, and when they said yes, they shot them. Why do you think a majority of this people kill themselves, or put themselves in positions to be killed, because they feel when they die, their at rest with no repercussions, but thats not the case.
If we keep learning that were just animals, then that is what we'll be and act like.
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/17/07 1:28
A: Filledwith Hope - It is unfortunate that anti-Semitism is on the rise. I've never thought of Judaism as inferior; it's those who are anti-Semitic who think that. (And just remember -nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent, so don't let them get to you.) We have the term Judeo-Christian, so there really should be no reason to not get along. Perhaps this tomb find can help to do that, as you noted?
And as Panluna pointed out, other religions have been destructive, none are innocent of that. Just as they've all been beneficial in other ways.
Mind you, I can certainly understand why that impression of inferiority is given when certain Christians like to arrogantly go around condemning anyone to hell who don't believe as they do, tell them they'll never get to heaven, etc. "Accept Jesus as Savior or else!" Just like they like to claim that the U.S. is a Christian nation, and the founding fathers wanted it that way. Not hardly. But they like to keep that myth alive.
I've told these type of Christians before that if you want to introduce someone to Christianity, to Jesus, you won't get far with threats -what happened to "love others as you love yourself" and "judge ye not, lest ye be judged"?
If you respect other peoples religion -whatever that religion may be- and even show interest in their religion too, well, they might just listen to what you have to say. But if you're going to judge them, and threaten them, no, you likely won't. I believe in tolerance - besides, maybe the Divine puts you on the path that is best for you since we're all individual unique beings; maybe all spiritual paths eventually lead to the One ?
About five years ago, at the company I used to work for, one of my co-workers (a Catholic) came in to work one morning in a real bad mood, and when I asked her what was wrong? she said she got stuck sitting by a radical fundamentalist on the train coming in to work, and he ended up lecturing her about all that she was doing wrong in her life, condemning her and all of that. She was quite the lit wire that morning, as it'd really upset her, even though she tried to tune him out. I told her to not let him bother her; who cares what he thinks?
Then she pointed her finger right at me, and said "you know, you've got a lot of far out ideas, what with all this Gnostic stuff of yours, and I admit some of it is very interesting, but you've never threatened me, never told me I had to believe the same as you."
I told her "well, I think everyone has to make their own way, on their own spiritual path, and besides if I would have threatened you, how much would you have listened to me then?" She said "precious little."
Due to being a 'heretic' [which translates to 'freethinker' and 'nonconformist' -good things to be] I've certainly had a few bigots condemn me to the pits of hell. As though I care. Or better yet, I like it when they tell me to "go to hell." Because my response to that, which always annoys them (try it, and see what I mean), is: "Why? Will you be at home?"
I recall one of the knee-jerk reactionaries, disputing this Jesus Family Tomb from day one, in his opening hysterical rant, just had to point out, that Simcha Jacobovici is a Jew. But, he didn't say anything further about it, which made me wonder why he said this? What was his point? And that got me wondering if he was maybe anti-Semitic? or maybe just had a personal 'bone to pick' with Simcha? In any regard, I then started laughing, because what went through my mind at that moment (and don't take this the wrong way) was this:
"Jesus was a Jew, Simcha is a Jew, it takes a Jew to know a Jew, and it takes one to find one!"
If Simcha wasn't Jewish, maybe the Tomb of Jesus would still be lost? So hurray for Judaism!
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/17/07 1:59
A: JMD,
The point of Christianity is that you cannot change the writings, it states that Jesus is the only way to heaven. As much as you want to believe another religion or try to make your own path as you put it, your still bound by the laws. I'd love to fly without help, but I'm bound by the laws of physics. Can't change that.
"well, I think everyone has to make their own way, on their own spiritual path, and besides if I would have threatened you, how much would you have listened to me then?"
"what happened to "love others as you love yourself" and "judge ye not, lest ye be judged"? "
Don't take it out of context... KJV: Mathew 7:5 "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Its saying not to judge others if you are doing the same thing, god doesn't want us to be hypocrites, he does though what us to help each other with our sins.
Some people are good at missionary work, and some are not. That doesn't change gods word. Sooner or later you have to face the fact that being a Christian isn't all about what you'll receive, but how you can glorify God. Being a Christian is by no means easy.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/17/07 11:44
A: Can" we love one another as we love ourselves"?as Jesus taught his followers to forgive.
Hitler wasn't an evolutionists.He was a monster killer and he executed more than just the Hebrews.He and his army killed anyone who stood in their way in their quest for world domination.He ordered the execution of Jews,The Roma,Croations and anyone in the Church who aided in the Resistance, the mentally ill and the Allied soldiers killed in combat.According to war laws to the victor goes the spoils of war.He was after the land and wealth of the sedantary groups and his ethnic cleansing policy --The Ultimate Solution---eliminated all he considered enemies.What's Evolutionary Science got to do with this?It was war.And history repeats its self and do we ever learn the lessons?It's always been this way.I don't condone war --more than anything I would like see world peace-- but it is a tecnique of population control in addition to plagues,climate changes and accidents among other uncontrollable situations.Can we stop warring forever ?That is the humanraces greatest challenge.Is the behaviour pattern so ingrained that we are incapable of breaking from it?Is there a way to modify the Bully-instigator-aggressor behaviour pattern in humans?It's what we are taught as children that counts and influences us as adults.
Remember the words of Jesus the Teacher:"Love one another as you would love thyself.Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.Forgive trespasses".
Peace
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/17/07 23:33
A: FilledwithHope,
"Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity."
Well maybe the Christian nation of America during WWII should have stayed out of the war then, sorry but there wouldn't be Jews today if it weren't for the many Christians that fought for the Jewish people.
Panluna,
"Hitler wasn't an evolutionists."
Prove it rather then just stating your opinion.
"What's Evolutionary Science got to do with this?"
Why do German scientists of today study the results of Hitlers "natural selection" then? Hundreds of publications have been presented on this topic.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/18/07 0:18
A: When the real Moshiach comes, then there will be a stripping away of mythical veils. The great chasm that currently exisits is straight forward and simple. It is not complex as the worlds intelligencia, political and religious leaders would have you believe.
When any religious leader allows its adherents to create and observe, in the guise of a religion, a system of rituals and practices that satisfy ones primitive urges and addresses their hopelessness or insecurities. Even when these people call upon their adherents to make sacrifices, there is a simulaneous satisfaction of deep primitive feelings. Often this attraction is so subtle that the worshippers, unaccustomed to self-examination, are unaware of its insidious nature.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 2:10
A: FilledwithHope, I second your statement. I hope Jews and Christians grow closer together, but as a Catholic, comments such as those by JSM fill me with saddness and show the arrogance of born again Christians. I am much more comfortable with the comments by JMD who seems to be much more tolerant of others.
Panluna what bravery your family must have shown during WWII in France. I had a great aunt in Poland who was Catholic and survived the death camps. It's true many were killed who were not just Jews, but Jews were the primarily target of Hitler.
JSM, there isn't enough time in the day to repsond to your comment that Christians were not involved in the Holocaust. They certainly were. Christians and the Pope allowed Hitler to happen. And even if you take Hitler out of it, Christians have burned and killed Jewish people for centuries. Your comment that only Jesus allows you to get to heaven is what spreads anti semitism and proves FilledwithHope's point. And Jesus probably wouldn't even agree with it which is what is ironic. This discovery of his tomb just enhances the fact that he lived and died and was buried as a Jew. If he comes back, I'm sure he'll tell us all to study Torah and live as good Jews, and not as pagan worshipping Christians.
In response to your comment that "Christian" America saved the Jews...Christian America turned many Jews away who were trying to enter America and flee Hitler. We entered the war because we were attacked at Pearl Habor, not to save the Jews.
America does not have a religion, and Islam is the fastest growing religion in America, not Christianity.
I will end this post on a more peaceful note. I am in Virginia and will offer a prayer to the families of the victims of Virginia Tech. This incident was tragic. Life can change in a heartbeat. I follow FilledwithHope's thoughts and hope that this horrible incident will unite us and not divide us. God Bless the students of Virginia Tech.
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/18/07 2:43
A: jsm - [re: your 04/17/07 1:59 post]:
I believe in tolerance, you apparently don't. I took the beam out of my eye -the self-righteous one -have you?
And those who chose to go around claiming that what they believe is the only way, the only "laws", should be able to accept that someone else of another religion thus has the exact same right, to tell you that you are wrong and are not following the right way/religion/proper "laws". And all that causes is fighting and tension and no love around at all.
And what about "the good Samaritan"? That shows me that Jesus believes in tolerance -though the self-righteous will never see it that way. "The eyes of the bigot glowed with the austere fire of the fanatic."(from Mists of Avalon, by M.Zimmer-Bradley)
oh boo-hoo, jsm, "being a Christian is by no means easy." Well, being a Jew or a Muslim or a Wiccan or a Pagan or a Gnostic or a Hindu or a Buddhist etc. is by no means always easy, either. You think you got it worse than others, do you? Oh, we all feel so sorry for you.
"I'd love to fly without help, but I'm bound by the laws of physics." That's too bad -the laws of physics sure don't stop my spirit from soaring and flying at times.
You claim that "The point of Christianity is that you cannot change the writings." Oh, really? They've already been changed numerous times, didn't you know that? (and so much for objectivity, as regards the scribes.)
But I'm no scholar, so here's a book for you -by Bart D. Ehrman [chairs the dept. of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill]
"Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why"
Here's a few thoughts from his excellent book:
"This book is about ancient manuscripts of the New Testament and the differences found in them, about scribes who copied scripture and sometimes changed it."
"The King James Bible was based on inferior manuscripts that in many cases do not accurately represent the meaning of the original text."
"Scribal errors were so common in antiquity that the author of the Book of Revelation threatened damnation to anyone who 'adds to' or 'takes away' words from the text."
"The anti-Jewishness of some second- and third-century Christian scribes played a role in how the texts of scripture were transmitted..."
"There were other passages in which the anti-Jewish sentiment of early Christian scribes made an impact on the texts they were copying. One of the most significant passages for the eventual rise of anti-Semitism is the scene of Jesus's trial in the Gospel of Matthew...."
"There are some Christian communities that stress the importance of women and allow them to play significant roles in the church, and there are others that believe women must be silent and subservient to the men of the community. The scribes who were copying the texts that later became scripture were obviously involved in these debates. . . passages were changed to reflect the views of the scribes who were reproducing them. In almost every instance in which a change of this sort occurs, the TEXT is CHANGED in ORDER to LIMIT the ROLE of WOMEN and to MINIMIZE THEIR IMPORTANCE to the Christian movement. ..." [emphasis mine!]
"...In short, there were debates in the early centuries of the church over the role of women, and on occasion these debates spilled over into the textual transmission of the New Testament itself, as scribes sometimes changed their texts in order to make them coincide more closely with the scribes' own sense of the (limited) role of women in the church."
"...Not only do we not have the originals, [NT manuscripts], we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later - much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, in many thousands of places. . . . these copies differ from one another in so many places that we don't even know how many differences there are. Possibly it is easiest to put in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament."
So much for "you cannot change the writings." Was already done long ago, over and over again.
[By the way, just to note, it's great that there are 'real' men out there, like Ehrman, who openly admit to bias/discrimination against women and don't try to hide it.]
"Rather than throw up our hands at this ominous glorification of intolerance in conservative churches, sometimes preached on a spiritual level but nearly always enacted at the physical/political level, we'd better discover and understand how their leaders are persuading people to promote curbs on freedom and perpetual "culture war". Only then can we appeal to the moderates within those churches who've gotten swept up into a tide of political antagonism with which they're not really comfortable. There's a new code for intolerance..."
[Dr. Teresa Whitehurst, January/2005, 'Making Tolerance a Sin; Intolerance a Virtue: The Intolerance of Christian Conservatives']
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 2:58
A: betty47,
"Christians and the Pope allowed Hitler to happen."
For starters the pope isn't a Christian, and second, support your idea
"Christians have burned and killed Jewish people for centuries."
The bible didn't tell them to. Thats their own actions, you cannot stereotype a whole group, by some that were misguided.
"Your comment that only Jesus allows you to get to heaven is what spreads antisemitism and proves FilledwithHope's point."
I only look to spread truth
"And Jesus probably wouldn't even agree with it which is what is ironic."
John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who should ever believe in him shall not die, but have everlasting life"
I swear you just talk for talking sake, do you really understand the discussions on this board? You come up with some real ignorant comments, have you ever studied anything you talk about?
"This discovery of his tomb just enhances the fact that he lived and died and was buried as a Jew."
This discovery doesn't enhance anything. Its not proven. I'm glad its good enough for you, but I believe in real evidence, not probabilities.
"If he comes back, I'm sure he'll tell us all to study Torah and live as good Jews, and not as pagan worshipping Christians."
Yeah... considering Christians worship Christ. Hence the name.
"America does not have a religion, and Islam is the fastest growing religion in America, not Christianity"
Was that to hurt my feelings?
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 3:15
A: JMD,
"oh boo-hoo, jsm, "being a Christian is by no means easy." Well, being a Jew or a Muslim or a Wiccan or a Pagan or a Gnostic or a Hindu or a Buddhist etc. is by no means always easy, either. You think you got it worse than others, do you? Oh, we all feel so sorry for you."
I wasn't looking for sympathy, I was stating the fact why a lot of Christians don't sugar coat things when they do missions work. Cause the truth is that if they don't believe in Christ, they will go to hell. Being born again isn't an easy task. I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about Christianity in general.
"I'd love to fly without help, but I'm bound by the laws of physics." That's too bad -the laws of physics sure don't stop my spirit from soaring and flying at times."
haha... I can tell you live in your imagination
"You claim that "The point of Christianity is that you cannot change the writings." Oh, really? They've already been changed numerous times, didn't you know that? (and so much for objectivity, as regards the scribes.)"
We have all the original manuscripts... All it takes is translating it into English.
"The King James Bible was based on inferior manuscripts that in many cases do not accurately represent the meaning of the original text."
I thought you said you weren't a scholar? The old testament were translated from the Hebrew texts and the New testament were translated from the Greek.
"Scribal errors were so common in antiquity that the author of the Book of Revelation threatened damnation to anyone who 'adds to' or 'takes away' words from the text."
Nice theory, but prove it, or submit some type of evidence other then your opinion.
"So much for "you cannot change the writings." Was already done long ago, over and over again. "
Are you going to submit evidence or proof? rather then just copying others people opinions of their websites? Oh thats right, your not a scholar. So why should I even listen to you? Everything I state about religion is just my opinion because I am not a scholar, I am a scientist. Your getting all worked up over my opinion.
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/18/07 3:32
A: *laughing* I'm not worked up about your opinion at all! I think it's really the other way around.
And no, don't listen to me as I'm no scholar - though I've done a bit of research on this myself. But, I like to quote scholars, to back up arguments - what's wrong with that? But don't read the book - it's likely far over your head, anyway. Ah, so ignorance is bliss for you; ah well, each to their own.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 3:43
A: JMD,
"And no, don't listen to me as I'm no scholar - though I've done a bit of research on this myself."
Done research... or read other peoples research?
"But don't read the book - it's likely far over your head, anyway."
Probably
So since we got out of the way that I'm uneducated, mind telling me what graduate school you went to and what you received your M.S. or Ph.D in?
Name:Red •
Date: 04/18/07 4:43
A: Jsm you speak a double standard of the highest order. You say Darwinism justifies imoral acts through "no reprecussions'. Historically, Christianity Justifies the same acts through "forgivness". Religion has been just as evil and torrid as any other philosophy, only diffrence is whose authority it is justified by.
You dont need to apologize for history. Hitler believed in God and makes no contention otherwise in his books Vol1&vol 2, and any of his speeches. You can believe he was only 'using christains to carry out his evil Darwin Plans' all you want. It fits your Agenda. After All, you dont want a saint like Hitler Identifiing with your religion. This I can understand. You might lose bussness.
Darwinism had nothing to do with the Killings of those Children at Columbine. It had to do with a couple of punks that had IDENTITY disorders along with attention deficits, intermingled with the financial arrogance and resources to clue one out. Similar to the "Night Stalker" murderer who wore the AC/DC shirt. The Band had nothing to do with The murders, it was a NUTJOB that sought an Identity and created one, although illogical and preverse. Damaged Brain Material does these things. A normal brain doesnt.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 10:46
A: Hi JSM,
I view Hitler's past atrocities in a political view rather than a scientific view.I never thought of natural selection in light of war tactics.How sophisticated and backwards we are---what a paradox!Politics picks strange bedfellows! Hitler was an atheist and ironicly one of his grandparents was half Jewish.Also the Pope is head of the Catholic Church which makes him a Christian.No body ALLOWED Hitler to commit ethnic cleansing as people were unaware of what was going on at that time--with the exceptions of the Nazis who carried out the orders for systimatic extermination.The Jews were rounded up but no one knew where they were being brought to until a spy in the Nazi organisation revealed what was going on.Then word got around and concern grew for who would be next..To me it's still political.True the United States entered the war after the attack on Pearl Harbor but it was more than just Christians in the US's military that was sent over there.
Politics and religion are seperate in this country And wars fought behind a religious shield are just useing a unting tactic because it's just our way of justifying our behaviour(under God) and the need to eliminate the foe who we view as threat.THOU SHALT NOT KILL is one of the Ten Commandments.If we taught our children it's ok to defend yourself just don't cause the trouble (instigate) there would less negative behaviour and killings.Tolerance is taught in the home environment when we teach our children respect.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 13:43
A: One thing I want to add to my above posts, I realize there were many brave Christians during WWII who did a lot to try to save many Jewish individuals. I don't want to discount them at all. They put their lives on the line to help Jews. But anti-semitism itself was born out of the blood libel and the chant by Christians over hundreds of years that Jews killed Jesus. It's only in recently history after WWII, during the last few decades, that modern Christians have backed off of those claims.
JSM, when you say that the Pope is not a Christian, you really take away from your credibility to argue your points. Go tell the Pope he's not a Christian. See what he says. The concept is not rational.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 13:53
A: Hi Betty47,
It was Roman law that executed Jesus resulting from the choice of Barrabas's follwers to spare Barabbas.Or was it the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 14:08
A: Thanks, Panluna. You have some wonderful posts. Very interesting.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 14:57
A: JSM ="John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."
This passage that you site, has been one of the most debated passages in all of Christianity. Did Jesus mean that he's the only path to truth and life? Modern Christians would say yes, but I wonder what all those books that were burnt would say. Was this passage taken out of context? Could it mean that Jesus is one way, but there are other ways too? Could it mean that the light is in all of us? Everyone has an opinion it seems on this. I wonder.......
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 17:56
A: Red,
"Jsm you speak a double standard of the highest order. You say Darwinism justifies imoral acts through "no reprecussions'. Historically, Christianity Justifies the same acts through "forgivness". Religion has been just as evil and torrid as any other philosophy, only diffrence is whose authority it is justified by."
I don't deny there have been many evil acts by Christians, but the bible doesn't tell them to do that, God doesn't tell them to do that, thats their own actions. They cannot justify their acts from the bible. Your just looking for an excuse to not believe in Gods word. There are millions of good Christians, you just decide to look at the few bad ones.
"You dont need to apologize for history. Hitler believed in God and makes no contention otherwise in his books Vol1&vol 2, and any of his speeches. You can believe he was only 'using christains to carry out his evil Darwin Plans' all you want. It fits your Agenda. After All, you dont want a saint like Hitler Identifiing with your religion. This I can understand. You might lose bussness."
There are plenty of people you believe in God and Evolution at the same time. There is no doubt about it that Hitler tried to use his own version of Natural Selection. There are hundreds of publications by German Scientists on this article. If you'd like to read them I can send you links.
"Darwinism had nothing to do with the Killings of those Children at Columbine. It had to do with a couple of punks that had IDENTITY disorders along with attention deficits, intermingled with the financial arrogance and resources to clue one out. Similar to the "Night Stalker" murderer who wore the AC/DC shirt. The Band had nothing to do with The murders, it was a NUTJOB that sought an Identity and created one, although illogical and preverse. Damaged Brain Material does these things. A normal brain doesnt."
I don't know about you, but I've never seen Natural Selection t-shirts at wal-mart. Not only that, but they both had them on. Guess they wanted to match? The police released the journals of the two killers and their journals were full of praises of Darwinism, fascinations of survival of the fittest, and they were most intrigued by the idea of natural selection. They used their own twisted version of natural selection to carry out their acts. Why do you think they asked the students if they believed in god, and if they did they shot them. MSNBC has a program on about 4 months ago about this, why the media never brought out this information as motive.
Panluna,
"THOU SHALT NOT KILL is one of the Ten Commandments."
I totally agree, I don't condone killing of any kind. And Christians should not try to justify killing.
betty47,
"JSM, when you say that the Pope is not a Christian, you really take away from your credibility to argue your points. Go tell the Pope he's not a Christian. See what he says. The concept is not rational."
Article from carm.org
Are Roman Catholics Christians? They are if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. However, if they believe that they are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.
Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the catholic saints. Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.
Catholics who follow the official teaching of Rome are not Christians by biblical standards.
betty47,
"This passage that you site, has been one of the most debated passages in all of Christianity. Did Jesus mean that he's the only path to truth and life? Modern Christians would say yes, but I wonder what all those books that were burnt would say. Was this passage taken out of context? Could it mean that Jesus is one way, but there are other ways too? Could it mean that the light is in all of us? Everyone has an opinion it seems on this. I wonder......."
Considering that the verse is backed up with about 60 more verses. If you'd like I could list them for you. If you take that one verse completely out of context, it could mean anything, your right. But it is completely support by other verses. I swear you try your best not to think the bible is creditable. You believe any one person who come up with some nonsense about it being contradictory. You don't believe in UFO's do you? And what books being burned are you talking about? Can't wait to hear this one... another unsupported theory that your gonna send me copied information from somebody's Geocities site. When you start supporting your theory's with facts, then I'll take you seriously. I couldn't care if you take me seriously, I'm just having fun on a message board.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 19:07
A: Please do not call that monster-madman Hitler a Saint or anyone who is a mass-murderer for that matter.They are a far cry from anyone good..The Saints of the Catholic Church were good,humble and devout people devoted to doing God's work in this world bringing Hope,Faith and Charity,.and many of them suffered all their lives.And NO religion should be used to justify a war.Why do we fight over the Dieties?Is it to gain favor with them?
As far as John 14:6 goes I feel that Jesus was enlightened and He shared His ideas with His group.He was a pacifist.There are other paths. Most people who seek those find parallel lines filled with similar ideas that lead to the same conclusion.Since He was a Teacher he wanted His people to listen to His words for comfort.Those were very scary times!! And knowing the Messianic prophecies I just don't understand why He endangered Himself and His family by going to Judea.He could have lived somewhere else,especially after His parents and His narrow escape to India (some accounts say Egypt,which was a Roman province at that time and they could have been found there)after the Nativity when the Romans were hunting down the newborn King and put to death the first born male of every household.They were afraid of a prophecy:the king Of Kings who would rule the world thus destroying the Roman Empire,which the Christians succeeded doing 312 years later by convincing Constatine that this was the Way when a miraculous sign appeared in the sky before a major battle after Constitine prayed to the New God of the early Christians.
It is a diffucult verse to figure out but I feel that He offered it as guidance for His people.Did He know the Messianic prophecies and tried to fulfill them or did every event recorded in His Life happen just by chance?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 19:20
A: JSM,
I believe UFOs exist.Remember Enoch?There is more to that story.....
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 19:28
A: If Christianity did not assimilate the pagan customs there would be no Christmas tree(German idea)gift-giving(Roman custom) or that darn fruit cake which just found its way back to me after making the rounds all these years.Who's custom was that????
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 20:05
A: Panluna,
"Please do not call that monster-madman Hitler a Saint or anyone who is a mass-murderer for that matter."
I didn't... Where did I?
Jeremiah 10:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 20:29
A: JSM, it was in the third pararagh on today's notice to Red."After all you don't want a saint like Hitler...."
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 23:48
A: Panluna,
"JSM, it was in the third pararagh on today's notice to Red."After all you don't want a saint like Hitler...."
That whole paragraph is what red wrote, I put things that people say in quotes then underneath them I reply. Wow....
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 04/19/07 0:56
A: FilledwithHope, Please don't judge Christians by Hitler and the Nazis. They were evil and of the Antichrist/Satan. As far as blaming the Jews for killing Jesus, anyone who studies the Bible knows that it was an international affair. Jews AND Gentiles (Romans). If Christians blame the Jews only, it is out of ignorance, and I apologize for that ignorance.
As a Christian I believe that the only way to eternal life is through Jesus Christ. Why? Because He said so. I didn't make those rules, but we believe that the God of the Jews (Jehovah) did. I believe in the resurrection and point scientific people to the Shroud of Turin and its ongoing, amazing research. The Shroud's data far outweighs the JFT theory that you have accepted, and you really need to study it to find out the truth for yourself.
It's not that Christians think we are superior--- at least we shouldn't, but I think PRIDE is a problem for ALL human beings, and the cause of many atrocities. The Bible says that "there is a way that seems right to man, but the end of it is death", (that comes from the Old Testament). God has provided an escape from death and hopelessness through Jesus Christ, but people refuse to believe it, and many rejoice when they think that His bones have been found in a box.
Do I hate those people who don't agree with me? NO, because Christ taught us to love everyone, even our enemies. But WE will be hated and persecuted for proclaiming this message, as many of our predecessors. I am grateful that I (and you, also) have the freedom to worship as we want in this country! However, today's world wants us all to blend together and if we don't , there could be persecution for us, just as there were for the Jews in WWII.
So what is the answer for all religions to live in peace? Here is a start: Everyone should have the freedom to worship, the freedom to speak, the freedom to CHANGE their religion if they so desire, and the freedom from persecution because of their religion. Peace - Shalom
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/19/07 1:06
A: onewhoknows,
"God has provided an escape from death and hopelessness through Jesus Christ, but people refuse to believe it, and many rejoice when they think that His bones have been found in a box."
Its sad, people rejoice as if he were evil. The greatest gift to humans so that we can escape death and people want to throw the gift away for mere bad science. I don't believe that people believe in this find because of the science, but because they don't want to believe Jesus is God.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/19/07 2:07
A: What does the hebrew [ aramaic ] word "satan" mean? Is it an entity or a force for equalization of "free will?"
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/19/07 2:38
A: If G_d made himself mortal, this would be an imperfect state and a "Perfect Being" would not and could not do so. Blind or emotional faith requires no knowledge. Blind or emotional Faith is based on words of a prophet. Basing a man above a mere mortal with flaws to one who is angelic is an error. Man is not elevated to impossible heights of healers, miracle workers or unaffected by death. Man is mortal, he lives and dies, he can not do without G_D's intervention. Man has the rational faculty to understand this.
Mans free wheeling emotions seek no code at all and not in contradiction to it, man also seeks other emotional satisfaction with no moral security, with no ability or demand for intelligent explanation. Man is attracted to alien religions which were created by those with infantile minds [ i.e. the idea of G_d inseminating a mortal creates a deus focia
( man-god ) worship ]. Contradictions are paramount and a violation of the first and second commandment exists.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/19/07 11:49
A: Hi Shlomo,
The word satan originally could have been interchanged with the desert words for liar and cheat or theif.Later on it evolved into an entity representing Evil.By the way the pagans and Wiccans do not worship the Devil/Satan image as so commonly thought.Someone had to take the bad rap so the pagans who worship nature became the scapegoats.Even in this day and age they are very misunderstood.The Devil image seen today in art was based on the image of the great god Pan and the Satyrs.Pan's history can be traced all the way from ancient India to the Celts of pre-Roman occupation.Mostly though he was worshipped in ancient Greece as a woodland Diety.There are many myths about him and he is still a common theme in literature.The word Occult means hidden knowledge and if that knowledge is misused it backfires.Hitler found that out when he tampered with the prophecies of Nastrodamus and had his personal astrologer executed because he didn't like the forcast for that day.Some forces just shouldn't be tampered with.Lucifer looks out for his own.He is known as the son of The Morning Star(Venus).His story originates in Genesis.There are two sides to the God-and -Devil coin.Which side is he?He can be both.It's in his true nature and ours.Free will lets us choose between commiting good or bad acts and fate is the result of those consequences.
Is Aramaic still spoken?And is it similar to the Hebrew language?I noticed the letters are different in the two alphabets.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/19/07 13:21
A: Shlomo,
"If G_d made himself mortal, this would be an imperfect state and a "Perfect Being" would not and could not do so."
Thats why it was a virgin birth
"Man is attracted to alien religions which were created by those with infantile minds [ i.e. the idea of G_d inseminating a mortal creates a deus focia ( man-god ) worship ]. Contradictions are paramount and a violation of the first and second commandment exists."
The father, the son, and the holy spirit, are the same entity.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/19/07 13:47
A: About that fruitcake:I dub it the boomerang -karma cake"what goes around comes around."It is a family heirloom that I am leaving in my will to my kids--and they thought I was leaving them my money.If they're smart they will donate it to the Smithsonian as the most traveled fruitcake on the planet.The reason why it's passed around so much is because it's the thought that counts.The reason we don't eat it is because you can get a sugar-rush that can last up to a month just from one slice!!Any scientist here willing to do a chemical analysis on my phantom fruitcake?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/19/07 23:12
A: Panluna,
Most semitic languages came from or derived from Aramaic. Before 13th century b.c. Hebrew was a sinaitic script. Then became an early Aramaic in 10th century, then 8th century to Phoenecian/Caananite. Also Arabic came late and adopted from early Aramaic via Nabatian.
Thanks for the reply to the word "satan." There is a little more to it. I was thinking you would hit on the nail. You were close.
Name:Todd •
Date: 04/19/07 23:42
A: Filledwithhope,
Wow,
Christians are responsible for Holocaust and millions of Jews deaths! Christians allowed it to happen! Sorry, but the Nazi’s were responsible mainly Hitler, Himmler, and the German people.
“To make for smoother intra-governmental cooperation in the implementation of this "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Question", the Wannsee Conference was held near Berlin On January 20, 1942 with the participation of fifteen senior officials, led by Reinhard Heydrich and Adolf Eichmann, the records of which provide the best evidence of the central planning of the Holocaust.”
Apathy on the part of people too afraid or unwilling to stand up to the Nazi‘s. Did The USA know prior to involvement in WWII, I’ve heard arguments either way.
FDR faced an enormous separatist movement here in the US but secretly and illegally(unconstitutionally) help England by send military ships and equipment.
Here again is that little word Apathy on the part of the people of the USA!!!
Here’s some stats for you so you know that the Jews weren‘t the only ones being persecuted by the Nazi‘s:
Death Tolls
Estimates place total number of Polish deaths around 5.4mln. 1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)
200,000 – 800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
200,000 – 300,000 people with disabilities
80,000-200,000 European Freemasons
100,000 communists
10,000 – 25,000 homosexual men, by the way they were treated as badly by the Jews in the concentration camps.
2,500 – 5,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses
3.5 – 6 million other Slavic civilians
2.5 – 4 million Soviet POWs
1 – 1.5 million political dissidents
The Nazis' ally in Croatia — conducted its own campaign of mass extermination against the Serbs in the areas which it controlled, resulting in the deaths of 500,000 – 1.2 million Serbs
In an effort to save space here and stay on topic I’ll list just a few Religious Figures. If I listed the occupied Countries, non-occupied Countries and Individuals who risked their lives to help thwart, hide, refuse to exile, and generally resist the Nazi’s I’d have pages upon pages.
This was copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who-_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust
Religiou-s- figures
Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Zante, who, when ordered by the Axis occupying forces to submit a list of all Jews on the island, submitted a document bearing just two names: his own and the Mayor's. Consequently all 275 Zante Jews were saved.
Archbishop Damaskinos - Archbishop of Athens during the German occupation. He formally protested the deportation of Jews and quietly ordered churches under his jurisdiction to issue fake Christian baptismal certificates to Jews fleeing the Nazis. Thousands of Greek Jews in and around Athens were thus able to claim that they were Christian and were thus saved.
Father Alfred Delp S.J., an agent who helped Jews escape to Switzerland while serving as a minister in suburban Munich; also involved with the Kreisau Circle.
Maximilian Kolbe - Polish Conventual Franciscan friar. During the Second World War, in the friary, Kolbe provided shelter to people from Greater Poland, including 2,000 Jews. He was also active as a radio amateur, vilifying Nazi activities through his reports.
Bernhard Lichtenberg - German Catholic priest at Berlin's Cathedral. Sent to Dachau because he prayed for Jews at Evening Prayer.
Hugh O'Flaherty - an Irish Catholic priest who saved about 4,000 Allied soldiers and Jews; known as the "Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican". Retold in the film The Scarlet and the Black.
This one blew me away!!Pope Pius XII - during the German occupation of Rome he organised that Italian Jews would be concealed in convents and monasteries. Up to 1,000 Jews were even concealed at the Pope's Summer Residence Castel Gandolfo.
Sára Salkaházi - a Hungarian Roman Catholic Sister who sheltered an estimated 100 Jews in Budapest.
Andrey Sheptytsky - Metropolitan Archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, harbored hundreds of Jews in his residence and in Greek Catholic monasteries. He also issued the pastoral letter, "Thou Shalt Not Kill," to protest Nazi atrocities.
The Sisters of Social Service, who saved thousands of Hungarian Jews; included Sister Sara Salkahazi, recognized by Yad Vashem as well as beatified.
Archbishop Stefan of Sofia - Bishop of Sofia and Exarch of Bulgaria.
Andre Trocmé and Magda Trocmé - A French pastor and his wife who led the Le Chambon-sur-Lignon village movement that saved 3,000-5,000 Jews.
To make a blanket statement like yours about Christians is the Exact same thing as Hitler saying all the problems the German people had was because of the Jews.
I agree that Jesus was a Jew I have no problem with that and from everything I’ve read he was trying to reform the Jewish religion or stop what he saw as the corruption of it more so than starting a new one.
When it was heard that Jesus had overturned the tables of the money-changers and those selling sacrificial animals in the temple:
Mark 11:18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching. (NIV)
Matt 26:3-4
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. (NIV)
Mark 3:6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. (NIV)
Matt 26:59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. (NIV)
A select few were responsible for Jesus’ death. Not the entire Jewish people from that day till now. Given the fact he was Crucified, that by itself tells me it was the Romans.
I think that respect for all people regardless of Race, Religion, Nationality, Sexuality, or any other thing should be secondary to who the person is on a human level. Even Christians.
I don’t consider myself anything other than a human being. So maybe I don’t get wrapped up in the elitist “my religion is better than yours” crap. I’m a monotheist who thinks Jesus said some great things. Too many people forget His sayings and concentrate on the Self-Serving Churches/Religions that sprung up in his name.
I agree with you about hate crimes being on the rise and I think Jesus wouldn't even be accepted in churches devoted to his name.
Consider this: I live in a very small town in Northern Michigan (stereotype would be Redneck) and I am teaching my childern to respect ALL people and to consider differing points of views before judging people.
So maybe it starts with us....
“they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character” MLK jr
Todd
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/19/07 23:57
A: jsm,
You missed my point. The notion of G_d becoming physical is an impossibility. G_d who created all of physical existence, is the One Being not subject those laws. G_d governs all physical matter. To suggest G_d can become physical [ son ] and be subject to his own physical laws means that he does not control the universe, this is a contradiction and impossibility and makes G_d finite instead of infinite.
Read Yeshayahu 7 in the original hebrew language as far as a virgin birth goes. The hebrew word is not "virgin," but "young lady"(wife) which is specific.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/20/07 0:18
A: Shlomo,
Why would god be bound by human laws if he became human form? He is one and three at the same time, he was the son at the same time as being the father, he was the holy spirit at the same time as being the son. That is the whole idea of the trinity.
The father, the son, and the holy spirit were together in the beginning, and one at the same time.
John 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”"
Moses wrote genesis, if you don't believe what moses wrote in Genesis, then you cannot believe what Jesus says. He is God
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 0:37
A: jsm,
I know you mean well, but I suggest you study deeper and use the logic and reasoning that was given to us by G_d. Have you tried to verify if there were two Beth-lechems exisiting during Jesus time? There were two, one in Zebullun 7 miles west of Nazareth and one in Judah over 100 miles away. Which one did Jesus come from? Challenge the new covenant in all its aspects and you will be amazed at what you learn.
I can not, with all due respect, believe Jesus was g_d.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/20/07 0:44
A: Shlomo,
I'm a bio-molecular physicist. I'm just stating my faith, I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't know Greek or Hebrew so I cannot study the original manuscripts, I leave that up to other Ph.D's. If you'd like I can ask a couple of my friends that do get really in depth with religious studies and can have them answer that for you if you'd like?
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/20/07 1:12
A: Shlomo,
Submit your theory on the two Bethlehem's existing during Jesus time and I'll listen to what you have to say, but please supply evidences to support your theory, not your speculations or others. Thanks
"Challenge the new covenant in all its aspects and you will be amazed at what you learn."
Like?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 1:13
A: jsm,
Sure, your friends are welcome to give an answer. Do not worry, I was never under the impression you were trying to change my mind. And I was only trying to get people to think a little deeper, below the surface, as it were. If you take the new covenant and investigate it like a detective or an archeologists you will find a lot of hidden items and actually obtain clarity. In my studies I have found that there is a massive amount of the usage of contextual elimination of verses taken from the old covenant and inserted into the new covenant to support their alleged evidence of a messiah.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 2:14
A: jsm,
For now you can check Yehoshua [Joshua] 19:15 / shoftim [Judges]12:10 for Beth-Lechem in Galilee.
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 04/20/07 8:25
A: Re Bethlehem:
Meaning = House of Bread
There were in fact two Bethlehems in Jesus' time.
The first here mentioned is the birthplace of Jesus. It is a town in the Judean highlands, located about 9 km from the Temple Mount.
The earlier name of Bethlehem was Ephrath (or, Ephrathah). Since there was another Bethlehem in the territory of Zebulun, the town in Judah was usually distinguished by reference to Ephrath, or by calling it "Bethlehem in Judah". (See Judges 17:7-9; 19:1,2,18)
It was not a prominent town nor did it have a large population - a "village" when Jesus was on earth. (See John 7:42) Therefore the prophet Micah in his Messianic prophecy could refer to Bethlehem Ephrathah as "the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah."
His prophecy showed that small Bethlehem would have the honor of being the town from which the Messiah would come.
"And you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Isreael, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite." (Micah 5:2)
The Jewish people understood this prophecy to mean that the Messiah would be born in and come from that town.
"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ is coming from the offspring of David, and from Bethlehem the village where David used to be?" (John 7:42)
Their chief priests and scribes expressed the same belief.
"At hearing this King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem along with him; and on gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people he began to inquire of them where the Christ was to be born. They said to him: ""In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is how it has been written through the prophet. """And you, O Bethlehem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant city among the governors of Judah; for out of you will come forth a governing one, who will shepherd my people, Israel.""""
The second Bethlehem is about 11 km from Nazareth, in the teritory of Zebulun.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 9:51
A: Hi Shlomo,
How close was I to the Hebrew version about the origin of the word satan?Also how and when did the Hebrews become slaves of Egypt before Moses lead them to freedom?And how long were they held in captivity?Did they wander into Egypt?And what are the names of the dieties they worshipped before Moses brought the ten commandments to them?Thank you for answer about Aramaic.I always thought Sanskrit was the basic root for most languages from that region.I'm not a scholar like you are but I'm willing to learn more.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 10:02
A: Todd,
Thank you for the list of facts.I agree with you.Tolerance does begin with each person.
Name:R. Kirk Kilpatrick •
Date: 04/20/07 10:49
A: OneGod...
Here are some statements from the DNA specialists... so far as other scholars USED in the documentary... that is just what happened in my opinion. They were used. They were not allowed on the documentary (Cross and others) to give their opinion of the assortment of evidence for the tomb. They were USED in their area of expertise, but their judgment on the whole was not allowed. So far as the statitician, he is not an expert in the field of archaeology or biblical studies.
Regarding the DNA “evidence”:
Dr. Carney Matheson, Lakehead University Paleo-DNA Laboratory, the one who did the DNA testing for the filmmakers:
The only conclusions we made was that these two sets [from the “Yeshua” and “Mariamne” ossuaries] were not maternally related. To me it sounds like absolutely nothing.
Elsewhere, Matheson noted that possible relationships (which DNA cannot establish) could be:
…father and daughter, paternal cousins, half brother and sister (sharing the same father) or simply unrelated individuals. The media does what they want.
And elsewhere:
There is a statement in the film that has been taken out of context. While marriage is a possibility, other relationships like father and daughter, paternal cousins, sister-in-law or indeed two unrelated individuals [are also possible]…
Regarding the tomb in general:
Prof. Amos Kloner, Israeli archeologist who oversaw the original discovery of the ossuaries:
It makes a great story for a TV film. But it’s completely impossible. It’s nonsense.
Dr. Jodi Magness, Department of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill:
The entire way this has been done has been an injustice to the entire discipline [of archaelogy] and also to the public.
Dr. William Dever, professor emeritus, University of Arizona:
The fact that it’s been ignored [since 1980] tells you something. It would be amusing if it didn’t mislead so many people.
Elsewhere:
It’s a publicity stunt, and it will make these guys very rich, and it will upset millions of innocent people because they don’t know enough to separate fact from fiction.
Dr. Leen Ritmeyer, biblical archeologist, Associate Professor at the College of Archaeology & Biblical History, TSW University:
It would have to be an archaeologist’s worst nightmare. Imagine — your careful academic work, as was Amos Kloner’s supervision of the tomb’s excavation for the IAA (Israel Antiquities Authority) in 1980 — hijacked by Hollywood. And that to produce a sensationalist documentary…. It is possibly the most cynical claim yet to be made in the field of Biblical Archaeology and only serves to give the subject a bad name.
Dr. Aren Maeir, Director of the Tell es-Safi/Gath Archeological Project and a lecturer at the Martin (Szusz) Department of Land of Israel Studies at Bar Ilan University:
Since, along with, most probably, the majority of archaeologists who deal with the ancient Levant, I have been asked about the question of the supposed tomb of Jesus and his family …, I thought that I should join the very clear message of the responsible archaeological community and say — this is HOGWASH!! (excuse my French!).
Dr. Laurence Stager, Professor of the Archeology of Israel at Harvard University:
From what I know about it at this moment, it sounds rather preposterous.
David Mevorah, Curator of the Israel Museum:
[Any theory that] this tomb was a tomb of the family of Jesus is a farfetched suggestion, and we need to be very careful with that.
Prof. L. Michael White, Director of the Institute for the Study of Antiquity and Christian Origins, Univeristy of Texas:
This is not archeologically sound. This is fanfare.
According to the Washington Post:
Leading archaeologists in Israel and the United States have denounced the purported discovery of the tomb of Jesus as a publicity stunt.
Dr. Dan Bahat, Israeli archeologist currently with the University of Toronto:
Yeshua was such a popular name during the Second Temple Period. The fact that you have such similar names is due to the fact that these were the prevalent names during that time.
David Mevorah, curator of the Israel Museum:
[The chances this is real] are more than remote. They are closer to fantasy. … [Their statistics are] a good trick. … Statistics can bring empires down or build them up. But I wouldn’t build a theory of the most important person of the first century on statistics.”
Dr. Tal Ilan, scholar who compiled the Lexicon of Jewish Names that was essential to the statistical calculations put forward by the documentary:
I think it [the lexicon] was completely mishandled. I am angry.
Dr. Garret G. Fagan, Professor of Classics at Penn State University:
They’re not scientists, but they need to dress themselves in the clothes of science to pass muster… Television is not in the business of education, even with the so-called educational channels like Discovery. “Ultimately, they’re in the business of making money. … By the time the rebuttals come out, the mass media would have moved on to the next sensation and people will have this vague notion that they have found the tomb of Jesus.
A: Let me clarify some confusion regarding an earlier post. It was I that made the Hitler/ saint remark. I did this in sarcasm, and Im sorry if it offended anyone.
I dont know how much History surrounding Nazi Germany is really known by people, But it is historical fact that Rome (vatican) Authenticated the Axis powers between Italy and Germany. There were Fundamental Disaggreements and it is a complicated affair, But for all practical reasoning Hitler was looked up to by the majority of German citizens as a Saint. A saviour of sorts, of Germany. The German people were generally Good, law abiding Christains. Now this may come as a suprise too many,: HITLER WAS ELECTED. This idea that he was a crazy Gun toting hooligan that took power illegally is just not true.
By accepting this reality I am in no way wanting to connect Christains With Nazism. HOWEVER at that time in GERMANY there was a CONNECTION. PERIOD. The Current Pope admits he was in the Nazi Youth. This doesnt make him a Nazi now, but it does reveal the far reaching political power of Nazism in that society AT THAT TIME.
Now Jsm Thinks that Hitler was a master user of the Good Christain Folks to his own Ends. Im sure there was some of that. BUT, Long before Hitler came to power, In the days of his youth when he thought he could buy everyone Beer and Coup the nation by Hijacking Taverns, He made his beliefs Clear as a bell. Hitler ALWAYS told it like it was, and NEVER had any problems with 'Political Correctness" insofar as to limit his Ideas to the people. As a citizen, a diplomat, or whoever, YOU COULD NOT underestimate what he said as so many do today. Leaders and diplomats of the day had to learn the HARD WAY because they could not beleive he was serious. They underestimated Him and this was a mistake. This Guy was A Man of CONVICTION and If he said he beleived In "GOD" He did. He did more than Anyone, and had ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to lie about it. This attribute is what made him in part such an effective leader. He DID not Bullshit, while making alot of people think he was.
If you guys cant pick up a copy of Mein Kampf and get the Gist, I suggest the "Phycopathic GOD" or The Rise and fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. Probably the best Book ever Written By a Guy WHO WAS THERE the whole time, Rallies and all.........
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 14:08
A: Were the ancient hebrews in Egypt at the time Pharoh Aknatan(sp?) introduced the idea of mono-theism namely the Aton and tried to eradicate the Egyptian pantheon?The priests asassinated him because they were afraid they would lose power then they reinstated their deities.
Could Moses(one drawn from water)who was raised as an Egyptian Prince after being rescued by the Pharoh's daughter have known the Aknaton story and introduced the monotheistic idea as well as the rules-the Ten Commandments--to his people to unify them?it's easier to settle differences if we believed in the same thing and follow the same rules.
A simple answer to the question as how God could be human is this:
Since He/She is the almighty who can create anything including all the univereses then He/She can make Himself/Herself human so that we can relate in human terms to the guidance offered.Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit.And God spoke through Him very much like the I AM presence or the speaking in tongues evidence of Angelic hosts contacting finite beings.Believe me it is not diabolical possession.Do we heed the messages?Maybe there is one for world peace and how to make it happen.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 14:41
A: The angelic alphabet and the Enochian one can be found on their own websites,along with the use of sigils courtesy of John Dee and associates who listened to and were tested by an Angel.Wikipedia has some listings.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/21/07 1:00
A: Canuckchick,
Judges 19 has to do with the Levite man at Gibeah against the Sodomites. He married a woman from Beth-Lechem of Yudah.
Judges 17 is about Micah's son not being sufficient to be a priest and he was adopted, as it were, a young man from Beth-Lechem of Yudah to be his priest.
But Michah 5:2 Beth-Lechem of Yudah is not referrring to Jesus, the chapter in context refers to Moshicah ben Yosef [messiah] and the return of the nation of Israel and its people. The forces of Gog will converge upon Yerushalayim and Moshiach will fight against Gog / Magog. The new covenant writers did not keep chapters or verses in context, they did a lot of contextual elimination to fit their prophectic short comings.
The geneaology of Jesus lacks 320 years in Mattityahu and Luke. The names given after Zerubabel [ governor of Yudah - last of Davidic lineage ] do not meet the threshold, they are lacking recordings or validity in any ancient records.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/21/07 1:28
A: Panluna,
Generally, the Hebrews and others in the area were affected by the famine [ after Yosef was sold years before ] and subsequently went to the place that had the food, Egypt. Yaacov and his sons met Yosef and stayed in Egypt.The Hebrews spent 210 years in Egyptian slavery. The time was cut short due to the strong overbearing outcry for G-d's mercy and a Paro who did not honor Yosef after his death and increased the hardship on the Hebrews. Certain documents indicate there were Hebrews who stayed in Egypt, these apparently became deeply involved in the religious worship of Egypts idols. When the Hebrews left, others including Egyptian people came along with them, this is how the Golden Calf incident came about, it was manipulated by the erev ["others and Egyptians"] who came with them to get out of slavery themselves, opportunists I would say. They were all slain by the Levites for creating a usurpation, including Hebrews who participated.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/21/07 2:11
A: Panluna,
7 of the 10 commandments were already known and used by the world, given after the flood, they are the Noachide laws. So most countries at the time followed those laws. That is why there is a similarity between the laws you question. But in essence there are 613 laws [ 248 positive 365 negative]. Monotheistic beliefs were rare outside of the Hebrews, most were trinitarian or more [ Babel, Assyria, Greecian, Roman, Arabian Hindu, Budda, Asian, etc.]. The one instance in Egypt was the the Sun
g-d "Amun Ra' [radium] who became a monotheistic g-d for a short period.
G-d being human? The Torah and mysteries say otherwise.............The lowest level of angels can make contact with humans, in fact they do everyday.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/21/07 12:39
A: Shlomo,
I just ordered my copy of the Stone edition of the Hebrew Bible from Amazon.I got to read a sample page.it is beautifully written.I can't wait to get my copy.Thank you for suggesting it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/21/07 14:53
A: Well I just got off the phone after speaking to my mother for 3hours and 13 and a half minutes.During the course of our conversation she told me the origin story of the family heirloom fruitcake.it was baked from an age-old recipe by an ancester.My great-grandfather came into possession and hung onto it for awhile.He used said it used talked him and they had many wonderous conversations about days gone by. Now I never heard a peep out of it when I had it.
Right after I hung the phone up the doorbell rang.Three men in black were standing at my door with orders to confiscate the fruitcake which for years had made the rounds and been used to make us behave if we wanted to get anything for Christmas"You had better be good or you'll get the FRUITCAKE in your stocking!" my parents always said.Other kids were told they'ld get coal by their parents.
Back to the Men-In-Black as they reached for the "treasured"family heirloom they told me---all three said the same thing at the same time---they heard about the sugar-rush and wanted it for the energy program.
Which one of you scientist told them about this?was it you Todd?????
They opened the box it had been in all these centuries traveling around---my greatgrandfather use to call it the cosmic-cake----the planet to all the relatives who kept passing it around and it...was..empty!!!
We now have a real mystery in our family:WHO ATE THE FRUITCAKE?
Needless to say The Three- Men -In- Black stepped back from the empty box and vanished into thin air.HaHaHa The END!!!
P.S. Can you believe it?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/21/07 22:23
A: Panluna,
Glad to hear that you ordered the Torah, it will be addictive and you will want to know more, so you will probably be increasing your library before long. Trust me I know, I can not keep mine clean and I am still looking for more books.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/22/07 11:00
A: Hi Shlomo,
I actually ordered two copies,one for my brother and one for me.Are there any other books you could recomend?Amazon.com or Alibris are really good book deaters.Amazon sells other stuff,too.What did you think of my nutty fruitcake story?I threw it in for levity.After all is said and done I'm filled with hope and laughter.Isn't it great news that we can learn from each other even if our views are opposing?I learned a alot from everyones' posts.And it made me think and opened my eyes.Thank you.
My son tells me that it was Dante's Inferno and artwork in it that gave the people of the day a visual impression of what evil is supposed to look like.Most people were illiterate and the churches used art to portray the Bible stories and get the ideas across about how beautiful God,Jesus and The Virgin Mary,and the good Angels looked and how evil in this world was personified in an ugly dark image.Mostly it was to scare them.According to my readings Lucifer,The Light Bringer was a very exacting teacher and expected more of the early humans.He had to resort to some trickery to get his points across and wound up getting the reputation for being the Great Deciever of humankind by the early theologians who pondered the good-and evil questions.People didn't use psychology in those days and it was religion that offered the guidelines.Well Someone had to be the bad One.He was the shapeshifter (snake)in the Garden of Eden and the consort of Lilith who spurned Adam when she refused to become his wife.They just weren't the same kind.She was a Nephilim who posessed magikal powers and Adam was a mere mortal.How they made Eve from his rib could be taken symbolicly meaning they were the same species.The Genesis story holds a a great deal of miracles and I wonder what Moses's source was from in order for him to write it.Is it a story that was told before he lead his people from bondage in Egypt?Moses possessed some magical skills.Magic has always been important to humans in real magick or as a tricks and illusions and apparitions and miracles.
None of my Wiccan friends have never seen the Devil ,and neither have I.Old Scratch doesn't pay housecalls.The Satanists stay at a baser level and have their own rules and stick with their own kind.They generally don't involve other people outside their own belief system..Who really was the Burning Bush?And what is the source of real magick and why can a small percentage of humans perform it?Or are attracted to it while other people misunderstand and fear it?Are the angels both dark and light and one and the same or are they seperate entities sent to save and teach at our level?Where did they really come from and where do they go when they aren't influencing us?And does the Source determine the results as rewards or punishment just to teach us our lessons?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/22/07 11:06
A: I didn't catch something when I proofread my previous message.It should read:None of my Wiccan friends have EVER seen the Devil and neither have I.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/22/07 14:49
A: Dear Panluna,
Seriously, I tell you the truth- it would not be to his advantage.
