|
Name: sadinoel •
Title: Do you believe your doctor? •
Date posted: 03/13/07 10:37
|
Q: If your doctor told you that you needed to lower your blood pressure or you might have a heart attack, you would listen.
Then why is it, that when doctors in archaeology and related fields tell us that Simcha's case is very weak so many of you won't listen? Heck, even the films own experts are recanting their statements and distancing themselves from this.
So again... Why do many people I see here, who trust in science, choose to selectively IGNORE science in this one particular case?
It's a rhetorical questoin.
I see people here ranting aobut how they don't trust all the archaeological scholars (the VAST majority of the community) who disagree with Simcha's assumptions.
But these same people "trust" experts who designed their toaster ovens and automobiles. They trust their doctors about their health, they trust our astronomers and physicists about space and matter, etc...
We trust experts in ALL AREAS of life because they know what they are talking about!
This isn't rocket science people.
Every expert I have seen not involved in the making of this film says it's a very flimsy case Simcha puts forth. Not only that, but Simcha has circumvented the responsible method of releasing important (supposedly) scientific data. Hardly a case for credibility.
So again... why do people trust experts in all areas of their life, but when it comes to this supposed Jesus tomb they choose to ignore all the experts and trust Simcha, a man with severe credibility problems and questionable motives?
Why?
|
|
|
|
Name: Messiah •
Date: 03/13/07 10:42 |
A: - "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you;
but if you really make them think they'll hate you."
/M
|
|
Name: Krystyna •
Date: 03/13/07 11:05 |
|
A: I think their responses are all based on emotions. People in general seem to love a good conspiracy theory. In this particular case, if you don't buy into Simcha's theory, lock, stock & barrel, his supporters tend to write you off as some sort of Christian kook. Well, I can tell you from my perspective, I've read alot on this particular period of time (Judea in the 1st century). I'm no expert, but I PURPOSEFULLY educated myself on the history of Jesus & the texts which were written about him, and I did this SPECIFICALLY so I could argue with Christians about him. Not because I"m a Christian, but because I am NOT a Christian. And I find the theories put forth by Simcha to border on almost laughable. And the fact that he circumvented peer review should be troubling to people. When a researcher does that in the medical community, they refer to him as a QUACK!
|
|
Name: sadinoel •
Date: 03/13/07 11:12 |
|
A: Great post Krystyna. This basis of this case has NOTHING to do with religion yet so many here attempt to divert the argument in that direction. The only thing people should be doing with this is looking at the science behind the claims and not bring in all of the tangental "implications". Evaluate the study, evaluate the methods, question the credibility of the people involved. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion when you strip it all down. When you remove religios (or non religious) bias from this "argument" their "theory" holds about as much water as a sieve.
|
|
Name: Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/13/07 11:27 |
|
A: Your doctor analogy doesn't fit. There's no emergency here. No one's going to die because they're willing to entertain this idea. It sounds like an argument that a conservative Christian would float, a kind of turn or burn analogy. In which case, I could see how the idea of a Jesus ossuary would be a threat to you.
|
|
Name: Krystyna •
Date: 03/13/07 11:39 |
|
A: See what I mean? LOL
|
|
Name: Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/13/07 11:49 |
A: Krystyna,
is it beyond your imagination that people with a religious agenda would attack this documentary?
Many of the people on this forum who claim the documentary is a fraud have also left things in their entries that refer to their religious beliefs. Some of them even end their entries with things like: a servant of the Lord most high.
This tomb may be proven to have nothing to do with Jesus. Some of us simply want to defend the right to do more research on it. We're simply saying that it's possible.
You claim to be a non-Christian who refers to Simcha as a "QUACK". OK, is it possible in your non-Christian view, that the physical body of Jesus was left in an ossuary.... somewhere.... anywhere?
|
|
Name: Krystyna •
Date: 03/13/07 12:38 |
A: No...it's not beyond my imagination to believe that people with a religious agenda would attack this documentary. Is it beyond your imagination that a person WITHOUT a religious agenda might see fit to attack it too? That is what chaps my hide on this issue; being written off as being a Christian kook, when that is about as FAR from the case in my situation as it can be! I mean...just because a person has issues pertaining to SHODDY SCHOLARSHIP does not necessarily mean they have a religious agenda!
Oh..and as for referring to Simcha as a "quack", I did not do that. Perhaps you ought to go back & re-read what I posted. I said "When a researcher does that in the medical community, they refer to him as a QUACK! " Last time I checked, Simcha was not involved in the medical community; he was supposedly involved in the archeological community! Isn't he?
And regarding Jesus' remains being in an ossuary; they could be. They could also be buried in another part of that area, in an unmarked ossuary & they could have also been buried much like we bury people today; in a simple hole in the ground. I've read that mostly the wealthier people had tombs, whereas poorer people just buried their dead like we do. Another possibility is that his body didn't survive crucifixion at all. Really, that was the one of the terrifying points of crucifixion - that your body after death was picked apart by birds while your body still hung there on the cross, and then when the authorities pulled your carcass off of the cross so that they could use it again to crucify someone, they tossed your body on the ground for the dogs & other animals to finish off.
As far as research goes; heck yeah they have the right to do more research. But, it behooves lay people to take it upon themselves to try & obtain a more objective view of the scholarship behind this sort of thing & not allow themselves to possibly be misled by people who may just be trying to sell a bunch of books & DVD's.
|
|
Name: Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/13/07 13:06 |
A: Krystyna:
You are so right. You didn't call Simcha a QUACK. You compared him to a QUACK. Point taken.
As for misleading people,
here's a few names for you to ponder:
Ted Haggard
Jimmy Swaggart
Jim Baker
No one from this documentary has asked me for one cent. Nor have they claimed that their book or DVD will get me closer to God.
|
|
Name: sadinoel •
Date: 03/13/07 13:32 |
A: Mark what do any of those folks have to do with evaluating the science and methods of Simcha and Co.?
Seems to me you are creating a red herring argument.
How about addressing Krystynas and my very valid points?
Perhaps because you have no argument and nobody except the producers of this flawed documentary to back up your opinion?
Why must you cling to the belief that this is Jesus' tomb when all the evidence is crumbling around you? Why can't you remove your bias and just look at the facts as they are. Try being objective. It's a good thing trust me. It's also the basis for SOUND SCIENCE and the basic premise for the discovery of things you would use to bash The Bible.. you know, the Earth is round, the sun is not the center of the universe, there was no Noahs Ark, you know, the usual stuff. Why do you support science in those situations and not when it comes to this supposed "study"... could it be because of your anti-religious bias? hmmmmmm
|
|
Name: Red •
Date: 03/13/07 18:00 |
A: Your confusing heart attacks with archeology......
Also, You seem to be on a mission . Constantly telling everyone on here that The WHOLE science community aint biting. Im not getting that from what Im reading.
I knew that was a load when you claimed on more than one occasion that 99% of the science community dont believe this".
" If you tell A lie, Tell one that's unbelievable, Theyll believe it"
It's not all that hard to surmise that these bones Just might be Jesus's , because Burial upon death is no lie.
|
|
Name: Red •
Date: 03/13/07 18:03 |
A: If your doctor told you to lower your blood pressure for fear of a heart attack. Would you believe Him?
Than Why cant you believe plenty of Doctors that say Bodily accension is Immpossible?
Im sure there are a WHOLE LOT OF medical doctors who will tell you flat out that comeing back to life after DECOMPOSITION would be quite immpossible. Who do you believe Those Docs, or the bible?
|
|
Name: Krystyna •
Date: 03/13/07 23:38 |
A: Mark,
I guess you didn't look up in the right hand corner of this web page...it's a link that says "buy the DVD"...and apparently you didn't look up at the top of this webpage either, right above where it says "Debate & Discussions." It's a link that says "buy the book." Those are advertisements Mark...advertisements are where they ask you for your money & since this website is operated by the people who put on the documentary, then they ARE asking you for your money. It's the same thing those three shysters you named do, except those three shysters are saying if you fall their line of crap, you may be closer to God. Whereas the people who are trying to sell you the DVD & book are saying maybe if you buy their stuff, you'll be more educated. The problem is that neither one of those propositions are likely to bear fruit. The buyer gets the shaft either way.
Oh...and I noticed your red herring too. Geez...can't you do better than that? LOL
|
|
Name: KevinBerg •
Date: 03/14/07 3:52 |
A: Red,
Medical doctors are experts in MEDICINE not MIRACLES. You're trying to disprove resurrection and ascension using physical and scientific laws. The problem with that is God is ABOVE those laws because He created them...He controls them.
You wonder why the Christians here seem like they're on a mission? We ARE! :) You must understand that being a Christian is not a religion, it's a lifestyle. Everything centers around God, and we want (and are CALLED) to share that with others.
|
|
Name: golfdane •
Date: 03/14/07 4:54 |
A: "Then why is it, that when doctors in archaeology and related fields tell us that Simcha's case is very weak so many of you won't listen? Heck, even the films own experts are recanting their statements and distancing themselves from this."
Because your socalled experts (like Jodi Magness) comes of as completely unscientific, when they use biblical accounts as the absolute truth.
It is you who ignore science. A scientific investigation to the James ossuary suggests, that this is the missing ossuary. However, you trust a 27 year old eyewittness account, that this isn't it? How scientific is that?
We have scholars that have YEARS of experience in deciphering inscriptions, that has all come to the same conclusion. Along comes Stephen Pfann with a differing account, and you cling on to it, like a hungry baby for a breast. Stephen Pfann has come up with a new translation to both the Jesus ossuary and the Mariamne ossuary (and the latter interpretation is questioned by the DNA evidence showing only one person in the DNA material).
We are all guilty of being selective about the evidence. I choose to go with those that are based in SCIENCE, and not religious dogma.
I could also say, that the opposing scientists have motives. To cover up a blunder of dimensions (not seing the cluster as significant, disregarding it based on questionable evidence or dogma and loosing part of the find). IOW, a complete zark up by the IAA.
|
|
Name: Red •
Date: 03/14/07 9:58 |
A: Has it ever occured to you That the "God" who created these laws are part of them? maybe even bound by his own creation because that is what "he' is?
If you studied certain laws of physics, you would find out that they can not be broken. You call a broken law a "miricle'. If a law can be manipulated as such then it IS NO miricle, and it is no law.
You say "God" is 'above them because he created them". Are you "above' your children? If so, in what way?
" Being a Christain is not a religion, but a lifestyle. GREAT, Ive got no problem with that.
"We want and are called to share that with others" GREAT, I have no problem with that.
I have NO problem with whatever you want to think, do, eat, drink, and live. But I do have a problem when you , or anyone else confuse science with YOUR LIFESTYLE.
|
|
Name: sadinoel •
Date: 03/14/07 10:53 |
A: golf you have no clue what you are talking about. the vast majority of experts in the field agree that Simcha is just chasing dollars.
you pick on Jodi Magness for using the Bible as a tool. she never lays claim that it is absolute truth from what I have seen. she simply references passages that talk about relevant history. or are you so blind that you are unaware the Bible is one of the most informative historical documents available to us from that time? its a tool used by ALL archaeologists and you sir have just shot your credibility in the foot with your display of ignorance.
even so. whats more likely to believe? that simcha is out for a cash grab, or that nearly the entire archaeological community is together in some giant conspiracy to cover up their ineptitude in deciphering the thing the first time around? occams razor my friend. look it up.
And to RED:
Stop claiming I am Christian. I never said that. You simply assume it because I do not buy into this pseudo scientific argument. nice try though.
|
|
Name: BMillikan •
Date: 03/14/07 19:23 |
|
A: Because people with the money can make these types of films and trust no one will look further into it to reveal the "real" truth. Which is, it's fiction.
|
