Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Title: Do religions prevent saving our planet ? •
Date posted: 05/12/08 7:54
Q: .
This is not a 'let's get rid of religion' page.
Would anyone like to discuss how religions impede us from solving pressing plane concerns ?
I am interested in people's ideas on how to preserve and what to push to the sidelines that will allow all faiths come together to solve pression planet concerns.
I propose a 1st topic.
I propose a Youtube video.
On the subject of world population.
Here is the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BbkQiQyaYc
Indie
.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/12/08 9:27
A: Hi,Indie
The only religion I follow is the Truth and sometimes it's better left unsaid and sometimes it needs to be represented in words and actions.
It took humanity a little over a century to ALMOST destroy this planet which was a billions of years in creation.Since the Earth's climate is changing partly due to us and partly due to it's orbital path each person has to do their share to conserve and clean up.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 05/13/08 18:16
A: .
Hi Panluna,
Your 2nd paragraph is in synch with the video.
It has taken a century to bring our planet to a 'health crisis'.
Even if
- in the 1700s the Renaissance and the belief that
science could solve all, and
- in the 1800s the industrial age took pollution from
1st to 4th gear in no time,
you are right, it is only in the last 100 years that the birth rate
has exploded incredibly.
The video show this well.
The ides of leaving some truths unsaid is a loaded statement,
since one person's truths are another's falsehoods...
Perhaps I am naive to think that text analysis and information such
as that brought forth by Sirs Cameron & Jacobovici can lead to
a new, more relaxed, give and take religious culture, one of
exchange.
But, I have a dream...
Indie
.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/15/08 11:29
A: Hi Indie,
I have a dream that religion and science put in the proper perpective will work together to benefit all of humanity.People will someday realize the importance of both and their contributions towards our cultural history and developement.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/15/08 11:43
A: I just watched the video on youtube.if I live to 2052 I wil be 100 years old.It would certainly be interesting to see how the world's population will advance in many ways.Hopefully world peace will be one of our achievements.Well between earthquakes and violent weather patterns nature is able to wipe out large numbers of lifeforms in a brief time.I think our constant battles might run second to earth's destructive patterns.We can control ourselves but we can't control natural forces.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/17/08 21:42
A: Hello to all my friends.
I am glad to be back , and to hear that Indie Anna is back too.
Dear Panluna, your dreams are my dreams and the dreams of billions who dream for peace and to save our planet, our only home from total distruction .
Our shuttered world yesterday, today and tommorow always been as a result of the man greed and disrespect. Politic and religiong , we like it or not they been a major part in it at all time. and only when the people who run the show from pliticians to religious leaders understand that peace is better than wining a war against their brothers and sisters in humanity, and when they do underatand that our planet , our home is in a great danger, and their grand children will be suffering in the future for what they done today, then and only then such beautiful dreeam will come.
Panluna, I did go to find what the Quran mention about CORRUPTION, and here few lines:
7:56 And cause not CORRUPTION UPON THE EARTH after its reformation. And invoke HIM in fear ans aspiration. Indeed, the mercy of GOD is near to the doers of good.
2:30 And [mention, O Muhammad],when your LORD said to the angels, "Indeed, I Will make upon the earth a successive authotity." They said, "Will YOU place upom it one who CAUSE CORRUPTION therein ans SHEDS BLOOD, while we delare YOUR praise and sanctify YOU?" HE [GOD] said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
In reading the second verse, I understand that the angels are God first creation in HIS universe and they are the closest to HIM, and the are the one who carry HIS works and His words, and we all know that human came as HIS last creation on earth, but no one knows about the other creation in between the angels and the human in GOD vast universe.
GOD created the human family different than the others and gave it the most advanced tool which is is the brain , and which make him different from the animal families, and gave him the total freedom in using that tool, and the angels themselves do not know what was the perpose from the human creation, because what GOD plan and what GOD wish in all HIS work is only for HIM to know.
Only GOD knows when our world started and when it will end. JESUS said :
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY words will not pass away [because His words came to Him from GOD]. BUT OF THAT DAY AND HOUR NO ONE KNOWS, NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, NOR THE SON, BUT THE FATHER ALONE [GOD alone knows the END]." M- 24:35/36
We human been given the freedom to chose, and we are responsible for what we choose, and we will be judged for everything, and GOD is fair.
41:46 Whoever does righteousness - it is for his [own] soul; and whoever does evil [does so] against it. AND YOUR LORD IS NOT EVER UNJUST TO [HIS] SERVANTS.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/18/08 15:03
A: Welcome back Sam!
How was your trip?
We do need to look within for the spirit of world peace.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/18/08 19:47
A: Hi Panluna,
Thank you.
Two weeks of sunshine at Daytona Beach FL. !!!, never happen before, we had a great time. we did 5800km of driving in 22 days, through NY, PA, WV, VE, NC. SC, GA. & visited Orlando, New Smyrna beach, and St. Augustine.
My grandson did the IOWA NATIONAL TEST for the third grade, and today we received an email for the results, it says:
"Axxx was given the IOWA tests of basic skills in March 2008.
At the time of testing, he was in third grade at St. Mark school in diocese of Springfield.
The compsite score can be used to discribe a student's overall achievement. On the test Axxx's composite national percentile rank 99 , means that he scored higher than 99 persent of third grade students nationally.......
That make us feel very happy.
I mentioned before on this forums, that the best school is at home and the greatest teachers are MOM & DAD, and from here is the start to build the perfect society and the great nations.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/01/08 14:09
A: Sam,
Your grandson is very smart. Please tell him to keep up the good work. and 5 stars and a big smile from me.Hope he enjoys his Summer vacation.i've been just getting over an extremely long series of colds,one after another.My daughter-in-law works at a day-care center and she substitutes for several elementary schools in the area and somehow once a week she manages to bring a new bug home.I'm feeling better now but this year I get the flu shot.
Hope all is well in Canada.I can't wait for warmer weather since we are at the half-way mark of this year.I'm glad you had a good time.I wonder if the NG forum will do an article on the new tribe discovered in the Brazilian jungle,recently.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/01/08 14:12
A: If Friendship was a religion the world would be saved.
NAMASTE.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/02/08 14:39
A: Dear Panluna,
Sory to hear that you got the flu, and for several times, hoping that this things is gone forever, and I wish you and your family a great and wonderful year [the half which is left] and the same for the years ahead.
Two days ago, I lost a tooth, after 15 days of naging pain [dentist + specialist then antibiotic and wait] , thanks God there is some, few good ones left.
The new tribe discovered in the Brazilian jungle recently, at the edge of our earth EQUATOR and only few hundred miles from a roads or an airports or a new/old town or city , that was a big surprise!, for many people, specially comming at the same time when man put a vehicle on the edge of the north pole of MARS !!!, and after sending men to walk on the moon !!!. I hope that the NG forum will bring this article to the table, since they are leaders in bringing new discoveries .
Hundred of thousand of years passed since the human race was introduced to our planet by Adam and Eve. I am glad that there are some who represents them today, and to show us that we started from that point , before we came to what we are now, today.
From bow and arrow, dress from leaves, simple hut, to missile, proper clothing, sky scraper, that is what differ us from the many spieces of animals and apes, who have brain in their skull. They been on this planet longer than Adam and Eve but they still the same as when they created, animals and apes.
That proves the theories of evolution by Darwin and his followers are wrong, also, that prove there were many creations one after the other, here on earth which we can see and in places far from our reach in the tremendous space around us, and billions of them during the life of our planet are great witness. Our planet is like a speck of dust in God universe. Now we know more than those who still live in the jungles of Brazil, or the one who lived at the time of the prophets. and our universe grown from a peace of land and smal lights in the sky to trillions of stars and billions of planets. IF GOD IS THE CREATOR, THEN ALL WHAT WE CAN SAY, WOW, WOW WHAT A GREAT WORK as we can say WOW, what a great cration on earth.
Q-17:99 Do they not SEE that GOD, who created the heavens and earth, is [THE ONE] able to create the likes of them?.....
{GOOD QUESTION, AND A SIMPLE ONE. we now start to know that there are planets out there}
36:36 Exalted is HE who created all pairs - from what the EARTH grows and from themselves AND FROM THAT WHICH THEY DO NOT KNOW.
{QUESTION: WE KNOW A LOT NOW OF WHAT AROUND US, BUT ARE WE ABLE TO KNOW ALL THE SECRETS IN OUR UNIVERSE?.
God creations are unlimited. Our knowledge is very limited even if we reach Mars or beyond, and it will still limited if we understand that the nearest star to our earth is 2 light years away, while Mars is only 16 minutes away}
While searching the word creation I came upon few verses which came as questions from God to us:
52:35 Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves] ?.
52:36 Or did they create the heavens and earth ?....
52:37 Or have they the despositories [containing the provision] of your LORD ? . Or are they the controllers [of them]?.
52:41 Or have they [knowledge of] the unseen, so they write it down ?.
{THOSE ARE GOOD QUESTIONS, and people should think about them and answer them, if they know better.}
Q- 36:76-83
-So let not their speech grieve you. Indeed, WE know what they conceal and what they declare.
(Jesus said: God knows what is in your heart)
- Does man not consider that WE created him from a [mere] sperm-drop, then at once he is a clear adversary.
- And he presents for us an example and forgets his [own] creation. He says, "who will give life to bones while they are disintegrated?"
- Say, "HE will give them life who produced them the first time; and HE is, of all creation, knowing."
- [It is] HE who made for you from the green tree, fire, and then from it you ignite.
- IS NOT HE WHO CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH ABLE TO CREATE THE LIKE OF THEM ? Yes, [it is so]; and HE is the knowing creator.
- HIS command is only when HE intends a thing that HE SAYS TO IT, "BE", AND IT IS.
- So exalted is HE in whose hand is the realm of all things, and to HIM you will be returned..
I did write a lot from the Quran teachings, just to bring the truth about it for those who listen to what some leaders of the churches who bring lies and hate to the millions who listen to them on TV or radio ,from inside the wall of the house which they call the house of God !!!, [Rev. Hagge etc.]
All what the Quran teach is to believe in God and to worship HIM , as Abraham and Moses and Jesus did, and it is different from other religions because it is the only one who believe in all God messengers and prophets, So why the Christians and Jews hate the book which praise God and talk about HIS greatness , and do respect Moses and Jesus and all the rest ?!!!.
God bless the good people on this earth who understand GOD'S words and work for peace and love.
"If Friendship was a religion the world would be saved." Panluna, that is true.
Real Friendship is built upon understanding, respect and love. When these three elements comes together it will become the religion that God gave us in the first place, it is all written in the books [they are clear in the Quran, and if anyone wish to see them, sure, I will bring them as proof], and written in God messeges to us, but most people they do not know.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/03/08 15:17
A: "Some critics have a tendency to label Buddhism as a religion with supra-mundane goals, devoid of the concept of love and friendship for living in this world. But the Tripitaka furnishes us with ample evidence to prove that the Buddha considered living in harmony and friendship without disputes (Samagga Sammodamana avivadamana) an important human relationship based on love. Metta or Loving Kindness envelopes much more than mere love. Etymologically the word Metta means the nature of a friend - (mittassa sabhavo).
In other words, a friendly spirit which is edified, not only on love, but on loving kindness. In modern parlance, the word "love" has rather a cheap connotation, but Metta when taken in its real perspective encapsulates all the noble human feelings a person could shower on another." Metta (loving kindness), Karuna (compassion), Muditha (altruistic joy) and Upeksha (equanimity), which are known as Satara Brahma Vihara or the Four Noble patterns of behaviour form the very sheet anchor of Buddhist friendly, ethical conduct. The spirit of love and friendship promulgated by these, cover a much wider spectrum than mere love, which is supposed to be lacking in Buddhism."
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/03/08 16:31
A: Hi again Sassy
I had a acquaintance who became a Buddhist just after she used my Bible. I have that in a different forum on gnostic. I think your right and I think Jesus leans more to the Zen side.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/07/08 1:05
A: Hi Sassy,
"Buddhism as a religion "
---- Buddhism is a philosophy, and it was derived mainly from Hinduism, since Buddha after leaving the palace and went into his journey, he was taught by Hindu monks, and he did not accept their ideas and went to bring his own philosophy.
He did not write his story or his books, but that was done after many years by many monks from stories they heard from the past, and they add some spices to it
There is a lot of good teaching in Budhism, but also there are many which only represent myths and unrealistic aproach to the suffering of the people.
"Seeing how all living beings are trapped in this vicious circle of suffering he felt deep compassion for them, and he developed a sincere wish to free all of them from their suffering." Buddhism.
---- I do like what I read here, but there are so many different kind of suffering, and the wish will not illiminate all, but instead of just bringing philosophical ideas, there should be laws to bring better life and reduce the suffering. Moses gave us some and followed by Jesus great words of love and peace, then came the Quran and brought many laws to bring better ways to reduce the suffering, for the people and for the earth which they live on.
Q-7:56 And CAUSE NOT CORRUPTION upon the earth after its reformation.
"CORRUPTION" ,corruption towards humanity or the land [earth], is the main reason for their suffering [people suffers and the land suffer], and at the end will be THE END which no one like to think about if the corruption did not stop.
God Said "cause not corruption" , and that is an order and a worning, and that is a law which we should keep and follow, and its an extension to the other laws that came before which cover only the human kind only as , "you shall not murder and you shall not steal etc."
Buddhism as Hinduism both believe in the reincarnation, and that of the rebirth of soul in new body, even in the lower form of life, as animals [rats cows etc.] and many times until it comes to the enlightment !!!.
Billions follow to believe in something cannot be accepted logically, since no soul came back after many deaths to tell her story .
It is similar to the story that the stars will fall on the earth and then Jesus will come on the cloud, and billions believed in that too, even today in the 21st century, and after knowing that if the son [a star] fall on earth there will be no earth and of cource no clouds.
After they had traveled about six miles, the prince [Buddha] dismounted from his horse and bade farewell to his aide. He then cut off his hair and threw it into the sky, where it was caught by the gods {how many gods?} of the Land of the Thirty-three Heavens {those are the number of the beans attached to a string that the monks carry . One of the gods then offered the prince the saffron robes of a religious mendicant {any one saw that god and did not describe him or tell which one of the thirty-three}. The prince accepted these and gave his royal garments to the god in exchange {a very nice tale for the stage}. In this way he ordained himself as a monk.
Many gods, even a god for war too !!!.
God bless you
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/07/08 16:06
A: I don't think you understand Buddhism fully. Also, I don't find the idea of reincarnation strange at all - it actually makes sense, really - you reap what you sow.
You noted this: "There is a lot of good teaching in Budhism, but also there are many which only represent myths and unrealistic aproach to the suffering of the people."
Well, there certainly is a lot of myths and unrealistic approach to the suffering of people under Islam! Look how women are treated - like crap. I think Islam is the most barbaric and hence the worst religion for women - they condone honor killings - a woman is raped and she gets blamed. Women are treated like property, with no rights of their own.
Now they want to bring their sexist Sharia law to western countries! Forget it. We must put a stop to it, and also quit worrying about all this political correctness.
Islam isn't about progress, they want us all to go back to the dark ages, where women are nothing but property and men can do whatever they want.
In Norway and Sweden and elsewhere, there has been an epidemic of rapes - muslim men raping non-muslim women. They think because these women aren't all wrapped up in on of their monkey suits, they have a right to rape, torture, etc. And the authorities aren't doing much about it. Then there's all the radical muslim terrorists. Disgusting.
But notice how Buddhists don't start wars and make threats and spew hatred like the main three patriarchal religions do - Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I think it's because Buddhists are more enlightened than many others.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/07/08 19:26
A: Parvin Darabi's speech on Godless Americans March, November 2nd, 2002 in Washington DC
They differed with me over what times we are living in.
It is not democracy when a man can talk about politics without anyone threatening him.
Democracy is when a woman can talk of her lover without anyone killing her.
-Dr. Sauad M. Al-Sabah
Good afternoon, it is such a pleasure to be in this historic event, I am just delighted to be here. I was six days old, I was told, when my paternal grandfather passed on his religion to me and declared me a Muslim girl. As a result I lost all my human rights.
According to Islamic Justice, in the court of law the testimony of two women is equal to that of one man. A woman's life is worth half of that of a man's. Women inherit only half as much as their male siblings. A woman cannot divorce, or get custody of her children.
A woman cannot travel, work, go to college, join organizations, visit her friends and relatives without her father or husband's permission. A woman should dwell where her husband desires.
Islam denies women the educational opportunities by forcing them to marry and have children at ages where their counterparts in civilized societies are still playing with dolls. Muslim Women are banned from competing in the Olympics.
I have come to this gathering from California to speak about my only sister, Dr. Homa Darabi, whose brief life and death scenario may serve as an example for the impact these laws have on women living in Iran and other Islamic countries.
My sister, Homa, in addition to being a doctor of medicine, was an outspoken feminist and a political activist. She also was a naturalized citizen of the United States. In 1990 She was ordered to comply with the strict rules of hijab. She refused. So she was considered an apostate.
My sister was a medical doctor specializing in pediatrics, general psychiatry, and child and adolescent psychiatry, and was licensed to practice medicine in New Jersey, New York, and California.
To help the deprived and poverty stricken Iranian children, she returned to Iran in 1976 and was appointed as a professor at the University of Tehran School of Medicine. She opened her private practice at the same time and very quickly became known all across Iran. She established the first children's Psychiatric Clinic in Tehran.
She was one of the strong supporters of the revolution, however, when the democratic revolution turned Islamic, Homa became devastated and totally broke away from all politics. She then devoted her time to her profession as a Medical Doctor and continued her struggles as a women's right activist.
To shut her up in retaliation, she was first fired from her position as a professor of Medicine at the University of Tehran and was later harassed inkier private practice. At age 52, she finally had to close down her practice, and be confined to her home for the first time in her life.
As a prominent psychiatrist, her services were requested by devastated and helpless parents whose daughters were subjected to the flogging and beating for such violations as wearing make up and nylons. They would beg her to go to the courts and declare their daughters as insane to suspend their punishment. To label a perfectly, healthy, sane young woman as insane was not a big issue with the parents. They wanted their daughters unharmed, but it was a moral issue with Homa. She felt she was ruining a young life forever.
A month prior to her death, a sixteen-year old girl was shot to death in Northern Tehran for wearing lipstick. Homa could no longer stand this brutality. She protested the oppression of women by setting herself on fire in Northern Tehran, on February 21, 1994. Her last cries were:
Death to Tyranny!
Long Live Liberty!
Long Live Iran!
For over twenty centuries we, the people, especially women have suffered and endured violence because of God, Allah, or other imaginary beings. It is time to end this cycle of violence and love and respect each other because we are all human, alive and here to enjoy our short stay on this planet. Let's make the twenty-first century the Godless Century. Let's remove this divisive issue fragmenting mankind from our minds, our every-day lives and our nation.
Parvin Darabi
Name:sam •
Date: 06/08/08 21:05
A: Dear Sassy,
You quoted the followings:
1- " I don't think you understand Buddhism fully"
---- You are wrong. Before I give my opinion on any subject, I do a lot of reading and research, and as for the many religions around , I do look also at their history, not only how they developed as religions but how been praticed by their followers to get better understanding on the diffence between the religions and those who cary the messages.
Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam as religons or practices all they came from the books [teaching], and you cannot compare one to other just by looking at the people who follow them , but to bring the books to the table and analyze them, to undrstand them and to see which one carry the thing which can be accepted logiclly. Philosophical work and beautiful words sometimes might be deceiving.
2- "Islam isn't about progress, they want us all to go back to the dark ages, ."
------ I think you need a lesson in history, that is for sure.
Europe : "The Dark Ages most commonly refers to the Western European Early Middle Ages, the period encompassing (roughly) 476 to 1000."
That was the time when Europe under the control of the Christian and their churches.
From the history of Spain: "Muslim rulers introduced new crops and efficient irrigation systems, trading and commerce thrived, and mathematics, medicine, and philosophy flourished."
Thereafter came the Christians again; "A dark era in Spain's medieval history took place with the establishment of the Spanish Inquisition in 1480. Inquisitors tortured and killed those they suspected of being heretics and false converts from the Jewish and Muslim faiths. The guilty faced imprisonment, hanging, beheading, and burning at the stake. The inquisition lasted until the 19th century, when Protestant heretics faced the same fate." [that was written by Christian historians too.]
You should read about the inquisition, and the religion wars in Europe.
And after, in the 19th century and the 20th century. What you think about the many wars, 100years war then the first followed by the second world wars and the killing by the millions , and the distruction, and the sufferings and the Christians were Joined by the Buddhist of Japan ot kill the Korean the Mongolins and the Chinese and the other Buddists and Hindu and Muslims in Asia !!! .
The Buddhism and the Christianity religion both teaches love and peace, but Buddists and Christians teaches hate and war and they do kill, so, you should understand the difference betwwen the religion and the religious.
If a muslim , or a Christian done wrong , you cannot blame their religions for what they done, or take their religion as wrong. You should understand the difference, and you should not be influenced by the church or the mosque or by the temple and their people, but use your own judgment after a lot of research and study.
3- "women are nothing but property and men can do whatever they want."
Paul:
Rom7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth...
1cor7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1cor11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man...
1cor11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Tim2:11 Let the woman learn in SILENCE with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in SILENCE.
SILENCE THE WOMAN, that came by Paul and it is added to the Bible next to Jesus words, That is wrong.
only a century ago, The women under the Buddhist rules has no word, they were silenced and put to serve man, even they were to wear very small and tight metal shose, and put to do men's work in the fields, they were treated as slave to men. {many documentries about the women in early Japan and China and the other counries in south east Asia.
Next I will bring the role of woman in Islam.
God bless you.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/09/08 14:05
A: Before I post something regarding the oppressive way (some) women are treated in Islam (after all, there are Muslim moderates, both men and women, who are for equality and against violence/torture against women -such as with honor killings, etc.), I just want to point out that you quoted nothing Jesus said - all words of Paul pretty much.
Cause' see, Jesus was kinda cool and ahead of his time in the sense he was the most, let's say, 'egalitarian holy man' who ever walked the earth. He didn't make all the sexist remarks that other holy men did, that Paul did. Jesus never says women are inferior to men, or that they have to obey and pretty much worship their husbands. So Amen and Awomen to that. He did have female disciples/apostles - they just aren't often acknowledged in so-called 'Christian' churches because of their patriarchal bias and because they follow Paul more, not Jesus.
So here's the article:
"When confronted with the issue of women's plight in Muslim countries, Muslim apologists insist that their religion has been misunderstood and that Islam actually grants women certain rights. They blame tradition and tribal societies for the low status and oppression of women.
Since Islam exerts absolute power over every aspect of Muslim society, from diet to relations between the sexes, why has it failed in fourteen centuries of its existence, to eradicate injustices against half of its adherents?
Turkey's women are the most liberated in the Muslim world. This was achieved not through Islamic reformation but through secularisation established by the founder of the modern Turkish republic Kemal Ataturk. Kemal was the product of secular education and had always admired Western culture. He pursued a program of westernisation that affected all aspects of Turkish life - women were granted the vote and veiling was prohibited. If the Turkish system were to collapse and replaced by an Islamic theocracy we can be certain that women's
progress will be reversed and women will be at the mercy of the mullahs. In countries where there has been a raise in fundamentalism and reversal to strict religious law such as Pakistan, Sudan and Afghanistan women are targeted with vengeance and brutality.
Some Muslim scholars agree that Mohammed did proclaim some rights for Muslim women. For example he abolished the pre-Islamic Arabian custom of burying alive unwanted female infants. He also decreed that women could own and inherit property, and that women have the right to enjoy sex!
However, he did enshrine women's inequality and inferior status in immutable Quranic law accepted by Muslims as the infallible word of God.
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because men spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those among you who fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” Sura 4:34
“...Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women. God is mighty and wise.” Sura 2:228
Under Shari'a - Islamic law - a man can marry up to four wives. He can divorce his wife or wives by saying “I divorce you” three times. For a wife to obtain a divorce is usually very difficult. Muslim apologists claim that Muslim women have the right to divorce and that in Islam the mother is revered and respected. Upon divorce, fathers win custody of boys over the age of six and girls on the onset of puberty. Many women would be reluctant to divorce violent or polygynous husbands for fear of losing their children. Despite the exaltation of motherhood - Mohammed once told a follower that paradise is found at the feet of the mother - children are considered the property of the father with the mother being merely the caretaker. How is it possible for a Muslim man to respect his mother when immutable religious law proclaims women's inferiority and inadequacy?
Under the Shari'a, compensation for the murder of a woman is half the amount of that of a man. A woman's testimony in court is worth only half of a man's.
Women are entitled to only half the inheritance of males; the reason given for these is that males have families to provide for. In sura 4:34 men are granted superiority and authority over women because they spend their wealth to maintain them, this implies that women are a burden on society and that their work in caring for children, household and livestock is insignificant and trivial.
Girls as young as nine can be married off by their father even if the mother disapproves of the marriage, often they end up as second or third wives of much older men - here is a way to instantly eradicate illegal paedophilia!
Conservative clerics have resisted moves to raise the minimum age for girls. One of Mohammed's wives, Aisha was seven when she was betrothed to Mohammed and nine when the marriage was consummated, Mohammed was in his fifties with several wives.
Any attempts by various governments to give women more freedoms, greater property and marriage rights have been vehemently opposed by conservative Islamists, who insist that the reforms are against Islam.
In the Qur'an the prescribed penalty for adultery is one hundred lashes and a year in exile - sura 24:1. However, Mohammed did condemn people to be stoned to death, in one case the rabbis brought a man and a woman accused of adultery, Mohammed ordered the pair to be stoned to death. The Jews practiced stoning for adultery and it is mentioned in the Old Testament under Mosaic Law. Today many Islamic fundamentalists advocate the stoning of women and stoning does occur in many Muslim countries.
In Muslim countries, men have the power of life and death over their women. Honour- killers usually escape punishment and the ones that are tried and convicted, receive only a few months in prison where they are treated like heroes by other inmates. Honour killings are carried out by men against women in their family for disobedience or suspected sexual transgressions. Even women who have been raped are killed for defiling the family honour.
In Jordan, the royal family has condemned honour killings but the government has not acted in repealing lenient laws for fear of enraging Islamic conservatives. The frighteningly powerful Islamic Action Front party, has declared that the proposal to introduce harsh laws against honour-killers “would destroy our Islamic, social and family values by stripping men of their humanity when they surprise their wives or female relatives committing adultery” (“family values” are certain to raise their ugly head whenever there is talk of justice for women!). Also they declared that honour killing is an Islamic duty and they justify their actions by the fact that Mohammed advocated stoning for adultery.
A 12-year old Jordanian girl returned home one evening from a walk with some friends. She was confronted by her enraged father who was shouting that she had dishonoured the entire family. He began beating his daughter with sticks and iron chains until she died. He told the police that he killed his only daughter because she went for a walk without his permission.
In Batsail, Bangladesh an 18-year old woman was flogged to death for “immoral” behaviour on the order of Muslim Clerics.
A 16-year old Jordanian girl had her throat slit by her brother after having
been raped by another of her brothers.
An Egyptian father paraded his daughter's severed head through the streets shouting: “I have avenged my honour”.
A woman that is not a virgin on her wedding night is likely to be killed by
her male relatives.
In countries governed by the Shari'a a woman's testimony is worth only half of that of a man's. In Pakistan since Islamisation, rape victims are charged with “zina” - sex outside marriage - and are sent to prison.
In Saudi Arabia women are subject to many harsh restrictions. They are forbidden to drive and most jobs are denied to them. The only evidence of their existence is the appearance of their name on their father's or husband's ID card. While women are expected to abide by a medieval and self-effacing moral code, Saudi men are importing planeloads of
prostitutes from overseas and are buying sex- slaves from impoverished
countries in addition to being permitted up to four wives.
The law on adultery usually applies only to women. Since men are permitted up to four wives plus concubines they would hardly have the time for “unlawful” sex! Recently there was a case in Nigeria of a woman accused of sex outside marriage. She was sentenced to death by stoning while the man she had sex with was not charged because there was not enough evidence against him!
When Afghanistan was occupied by the Russians, women's rights were protected by law - much to the dismay of Islamists. When the Russians withdrew Islamic fundamentalists went to work in eradicating any gains made by women. The Taliban, a product of the Madrasah - fundamentalist religious school where boys spend hours every day reciting and memorizing the Qur'an - has taken the subjugation of women to new heights. Women were barred from employment and
girls are forbidden to attend school. Women were also denied medical care because it was illegal for women to be examined by a male doctor. Any woman caught in the company of a male not related to her was sentenced to death and women were not permitted to leave the house without being accompanied by a male relative. Some women earned a small income by baking bread, when discovered by the Taliban they were burned alive in their own ovens."
In the Indian province of Kashmir, Muslim fundamentalists have demanded that all women (even those who are not Muslim) start wearing veils. When the call was ignored Muslim thugs threw acid in the faces of uncovered women.
Female genital mutilation is an African custom that pre-dates Judaism,
Christianity and Islam. It is widely practiced in African countries, the
Middle East, Malaysia, Indonesia and also amongst certain ethnic groups living in Europe, North America and Australia. In Africa FGM is practiced not only by Muslims but also by some Christian and Animist groups as well.
Some Muslims believe that Islam mandates FGM and they continue its practice in order to ensure that their daughters will remain chaste until marriage. The doctrine of “chastity equals goodness” is nothing more than a device designed to control women's sexuality and to reduce women into objects “new” and “used!” Sounds familiar? In the US, Christian fundamentalists have embarked on a “chastity and family values” crusade in order to curb women's sexual freedom and autonomy.
Islam's psychotic obsession with female chastity, modesty and virginity has rendered men incapable of viewing women as equal and worthy companions. How can we expect these men to treat women decently when their religion and culture forbids it! In fact, Muslim men can relax only when their foot is firmly placed on their women's necks!
In Muslim societies religion governs all aspects of life and has priority over secular laws and local customs, therefore, the excuse that tradition alone is responsible for women's oppression is untenable. Unless Muslim apologists are prepared to back their claims by a campaign to reform their religion and improve the situation of women, their assertions that Islam is blameless in oppressing women, are null and void.
is a risk that multiculturalism and freedom of religion will ensure that
tradition and religion remain eternally immutable. Should respecting other cultures mean that we should turn a blind eye to sadism, torture and brutality?
How long I wonder, will the world continue to tolerate the gender apartheid in the Islamic world and still persist in calling itself civilised?
___
Exactly.
So I'll repeat: in my opinion I think the worst religion for women is Islam.
God and Goddess bless
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/09/08 15:17
A: That is another good reason, not to accept that Jesus was teaching a forerunner to belief to Muslims they are not the same at all in the respects of women. Jesus did not tell a woman to hide her head , Paul did. Jesus was Pro Female. Paul did not learn that from Jesus, he went to Arabia and learned it there, that is what the New Testament actually states. Jesus said why hide your light ? What good is it if it is hidden?
Name:sam •
Date: 06/09/08 19:34
A: Hi Sassy,
You said: "Muslim Women are treated like property". !!!
You are wrong. The Quran came before 1400 years, and was the first to bring laws in regards to the woman rights, at the time when the woman has no rights at all, not in Jewdaism or Christianity and not even in Juddism or Hinduism, also gave woman the right to own property and to deals in trade beside the man and to inherit * . If I am wrong , then you bring from the Bible or the Gospels or the Buddhist books some similar laws, which give the woman her rights . Please do.
Islam regarded all people are equals in the sight of God, man, woman, black or white, and all born free, but the Bible shows that some are above the others, and that is clear.
Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Two brothers, one has rights and the other not, and that is not right , not at all.
That is what I read , when I open the site of "THE HISTORY OF WOMAN RIGHTS":
{October 18, 1929
About the Persons Case:
The Persons Case is a legal history milestone in Canada. Five women from Alberta, known as the Famous Five, asked the Supreme Court of Canada to declare that WOMEN WERE PERSONS UNDER THE LAW.}
Under the Islamic laws the women were treated as person before 1400 years, and she has her rights.
Treating women wrong by some , and take the Imam's orders to do things that is against Islam as the face cover [burka] and not to teach the girls is not from the Islam teaching and did not comes in the Quran. None of the Muslim women cover their faces at the time of the Prophet, and all they wear the same clothes as Mary and the other women at the time of Jesus, the burka or hijab all came centuries after when the berbaric Mongols and the crusaiders occupied their land, and that to protect the girls from been raped by the enemy soldiers .
In the west as in the far east even today and with all what the woman gets from rights she still without any protection, when she loses her father or husband and had children to support, and since she got her equal share as man, then she is responsible for herself, and life is very hard to be alone in any time, specially for a woman and a mother, and that will bring the poor woman to chose the wrong things and might end in selling hersel and her body in the market. {I DON'T THINK ANY WOMAN WILL LIKE TO END IN THAT ROAD, AND FOR SURE, THE MUSLIMS MAN AND WOMAN WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT FOR THEIR MOTHER AND SISTER}.
I don't know if you been to Paris [Mont-Marter], London [Soho}, Hamburg [ which has one mile street in the center of the city, where women are displayed mostly naked on the shops windows , and the same in Stockholm, Bangkok and Sydney [King-Cross].
QUESTION: "DO YOU THINK THOSE WOMEN WHO BEEN SOLD IN SHOPS WINDOW OR THE TEEN AGED GIRLS WHO GETS PREGNANTS ARE FREE AND EQUAL TO MAN? DO THEY LIVE RESPECTFUL LIVING AS THE MUSLIM WOMEN WHO LIVE IN THEIR OWN HOME WITH THEIR HUSBAND UNDER THE PROTECTION OF THEIR FATHER, MOTHER, BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND SO THEIR CHILDREN?" In Islam we do believe that all the members of the family should be protected, and to live under the laws and the will of GOD, and so do Jesus *.
Islam give man twice of the inheritence as gives to woman, and that is for a reason, because when the woman has no income to support herself, for any reason, her brother under the law has to provide for her AND HER CHILDREN so she can be safe. {I DON'T THING YOU UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OR THE REASON FOR THOSE ISLAMIC LAWS}
The following are some verses from the Quran and the Gospels, that is for you to judge :
Q- 17:23/24 And your LORD has decreed that you not worship except HIM, AND TO PARENTS, GOOD TREATMENT. Whether one or both of them reach old age [while] with you, say not to them [so much as] "uff," AND NOT REPEL THEM BUT SPEAK TO THEM A NOBLE WORD. - AND LOWER TO THEM THE WING OF HUMILITY OUT OF MERCY AND SAY, "MY LORD, HAVE MERCY UPON THEM AS THEY BROUGHT ME UP [WHEN I WAS] SMALL."
In islam, the father and the mother are equal, and they should be respected and looked after when they grow old.
If you find any equal words to that in any other old book of that period or before please bring it up.
* Jesus said: For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. Mark 3:35
{Those are great words. Only, Those who do the will of God can be called as his mother and brother and sister, and people should know what is the will of God, it is written in the laws that Moses and Jesus brought to us.}
Under the western laws.
"The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the western world, despite the fact that our teens are not more sexually active than Swedish teens, or Canadian teens, or British teens. " internet.
"Fact: One million teens in the USA will become pregnant over the next twelve months." intenet.
1 million in one year in USA alone !!! , and adding the many other Christian and Buddhism country to these figures, what you think the results, and what you think about the number in 10 or 20 years !!!, and what happen to the future of the girl [and while she is still a child herself] and to her child? {That is why Islam brings laws [it might look hard to you to understand] but it came to protect the girl and the child.}
God bless you
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/09/08 21:53
A: The Quran was written about 600 AD. There are not to many Muslim women, who live long enough to talk about having been raped .
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/10/08 13:59
A: Well, at least pregnant teenagers in the U.S. aren't regularly stoned to death or shot or had their throats slit by brothers and fathers!
"Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Khomeini's Religious Teachings on Marriage, Divorce and Relationships (Parvin Darabi, USA-based Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation website, Jun 10, 2006):
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
"The Taliban, with its fanatical subjugation of the female sex, occupies an extreme, but it nevertheless belongs on a continuum that includes, not so far down the line, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan and the relatively moderate states of Egypt and Jordan. Where Muslims have afforded women the greatest degree of equality--in Turkey--they have done so by overthrowing Islamic precepts in favor of secular rule. As Riffat Hassan, professor of religious studies at the University of Louisville, puts it, "The way Islam has been practiced in most Muslim societies for centuries has left millions of Muslim women with battered bodies, minds and souls."
"Fear of poverty keeps many Muslim women locked in bad marriages, as does the prospect of losing their children. Typically, fathers win custody of boys over the age of six and girls after the onset of puberty. Maryam, an Iranian woman, says she has stayed married for 20 years to a philandering opium addict she does not love because she fears losing guardianship of her teenage daughter. "Islam supposedly gives me the right to divorce," she says. "But what about my rights afterward?"
"Wife beating is so prevalent in the Muslim world that social workers who assist battered women in Egypt, for example, spend much of their time trying to convince victims that their husbands' violent acts are unacceptable."
"Beatings are not the worst of female suffering. Each year hundreds of Muslim women die in "honor killings"-- murders by husbands or male relatives of women suspected of disobedience, usually a sexual indiscretion or marriage against the family's wishes. Typically, the killers are punished lightly, if at all."
"Female circumcision, also called female genital mutilation, is another case in point. It involves removing part or all of a girl's clitoris and labia in an effort to reduce female sexual desire and thereby preserve chastity. FGM is widespread in sub-Saharan Africa and in Egypt, with scattered cases in Asia and other parts of the Middle East. The World Health Organization estimates that up to 140 million girls and women have undergone the procedure."
"Limits placed on the movement of Muslim women, the jobs they can hold and their interactions with men are also rooted in fears of unchaste behavior. The Taliban took these controls to an extreme, but the Saudis are also harsh, imposing on women some of the tightest restrictions on personal and civil freedoms anywhere in the world. Saudi women are not allowed to drive. They are effectively forbidden education in fields such as engineering and law. They can teach and provide medical care to other women but are denied almost all other government jobs. Thousands have entered private business, but they must work segregated from men and in practice are barred from advancement."
___
You know, if men were treated like this in whatever country, there would be such an outcry, but because it's crimes against women in Islamic countries nothing is done about it; because the world is still run by men for men. Amnesty International does reports on how badly women are treated throughout the world, but governments just ignore it. But then, it's still a man's world, not a woman's world. Nothing is done much to rapists the world over - because it's a crime against women done by men. I think rapists and child molesters should be castrated - a punishment that fits the crime.
And while women in Islamic countries get blamed for rapes and killed sometimes because of it (talk about blaming the victim!) the men who rape and kill get away with it.
But notice that Jesus said in the New Testament that if a man just looks at a woman with lust he's committed adultery! So Jesus is saying men are to blame themselves for their unpure thoughts -and thus actions- not women.
The 3 main religions became very patriarchal (women were treated better under Islam when it first started!) and thus none are really all that great for women - Christianity (based on Paul not Jesus), Judaism and Islam believe in an all male macho god with no room for the feminine of the divine - they kicked her out centuries ago. (Yahweh used to have a consort named Asherah).
So I don't think it's God that fundamentalists (of any religion) worship so much - it's the male they worship, so they created an all-male god. Perhaps they should therefore put a big stiff penis on all churches, temples and mosques! Though I think the vatican does have that big ol' phallus symbol, don't they? It might be in St. Peter's square or something. (funny how Peter is a slang word for penis.)
Joseph Campbell:
"Like the Titans of the older faith, Adam and Eve were the children of the mother-goddess Earth. 'The man' we read in the Bible, 'called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.' As the mother of all living, Eve herself, then, must be recognized as the missing anthropomorphic aspect of the mother-goddess. And Adam, therefore, must have been her son as well as spouse: for the legend of the rib is clearly a patriarchal inversion giving precedence to the male, of the earlier myth of the hero born from the goddess Earth who returns to her to be reborn."
To believe in just an all male god or an all female goddess is to be one-sided; better to embrace both the male and female of the Divine and become androgynous. Unless of course you don't want wholeness and balance. Wicca is probably the most 'balanced' religion around today.
I think Jesus shows this balance/wholeness in Gospel of Thomas when he says:
"When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter [the kingdom]."
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/10/08 14:40
A: Sassy,
The more I study Jesus the more I see his teachings in a different light.I feel that he learned about more teachings than the Hebrew religion and he tried to teach compassion and understanding.His words are wisely spiritual.
Human rights are political and social practises based on a religion that teaches cruety only holds and stagnates the human race in a backwards attitude and very bad state of disgrace.i have no idea why there is a lack of civility torwards women in many cultures--maybe it is because of Eve's curse---but honestly it's time for people to move forward into a better social attitude towards the "weaker" gender.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/10/08 19:52
A: The reason women are called the 'weaker' sex (after all there are many kinds of 'genders') is because they only equate physical/muscle power with strength. They don't take other strengths into consideration - like mental strength. And, if women were truly so weak, however could they give birth! You can't be weak to do that.
Besides, there are some women atheletes out there who are physically stronger than some men who are around. And some men, when they get sick become big babies - they become 'weak'. Yet women don't on the whole become such big babies when they get sick. It's a strength women have moreso than men on the 'whole.'
If one looks at what Jesus (not Paul) says in the New Testament and then compares it to what many churches teach, you'll see they go against Jesus.
For just one example, Jesus is against hierarchies of power, those ruling over others - yet what does the Catholic church do? They do just what Jesus said not to and build a powerful all-male hierarchy.
Jesus says to give away your wealth and follow him. Now, I don't think Jesus means giving everything away and living on the street! but his point is I think to live simply, don't get tangled up in material wealth, give excess to charity, etc. But the vatican didn't follow this either. They love luxury, and wealth, money, gold, and whatnot. And you have all these wealthy tv preachers raking in the bucks and living high on the hog.
I think the reason women have such low status in various countries and all these religious laws against them, to oppress them, is because they used to have power and authority at one time in the ancient past! Men wanted to take total control so made up a bunch of rules against women - lots of double standards, too. And they'd perhaps keep women in line with threats of beating, raping, etc.
I found an interesting article on a moderate Muslim site about "NO to Political Islam Campaign"
Here's the article:
"Why Sharia Law Must Be Opposed"
"Sharia law is the instrument by which Political Islam seeks to control the Muslim world. Whilst the Sharia may have been inspired by the Holy Quran, it has developed and evolved through time and through the efforts of men. The Sharia should be open to analysis, research and criticism like any other system of law, practice and belief. Its divine inspiration should no more shield it from criticism than Christianity should have been spared criticism for burning heretics or massacring unbelievers. The more pernicious interpretations of the Sharia today fall far short of the minimum standards of justice widely demanded by the international community and by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
The Sharia should be opposed for its imposition of theocracy over democracy, its abuse of human rights, its institutionalized discrimination, its denial of human dignity and individual autonomy, its punishment of alternative lifestyle choices, and for the severity of its punishments.
In the west, in countries that have a sizable Muslim population, there have been calls for the Sharia to be adopted for the Muslim community. These calls should be vigorously opposed; the Sharia conflicts with many basic human values, such as equality before the law, that punishments should be commensurate with the crime, and that the law must be based on the will of the people. The Sharia as it developed in the first few centuries of Islam incorporated many pre-Islamic Middle-Eastern misogynist and tribal customs and traditions. The Sharia was
developed not only from the Holy Quran but incorporates legal principles from other sects. We may ask how a law whose elements were first laid down over 1,000 years ago can possibly be relevant in the 21st century. The Sharia reflects the social and economic conditions at the time of the Abbasids and has become further and further out of touch with later social, economic, technological, cultural and moral developments. The principles of the Sharia are inimical to moral progress, humanity and civilized values.
The problem for all of us is how to oppose the violations of human rights inherent in the Sharia without being accused of blasphemy or apostasy. We would suggest that the answer lies in a return to the Five Pillars of Islam.
For non-Muslims who want to help, the problem is how to avoid charges of cultural imperialism, neocolonialism and racism, or of failing to respect “the other”. But cultural relativism is not the answer. In India, each religion has its own social laws.
Muslim women do not enjoy the same rights as Hindu women. Why not? Justice cries out for secularism. One law for all – equality before the law – for Muslims and non-Muslims, for men and women alike, must be the answer.
Many of the arguments for permitting each religion or culture to determine its own laws are based on a misunderstanding of the nature of human rights. Human rights as defined in the UDHR are vested in the individual, not the group. As soon as rights are accorded to a group rather than to individuals, conflict becomes possible not only between one group and another, but between the group and its own members.
Any group that denies the right of its members to leave is in contravention of one of the most fundamental principles of human rights. Yet clearly, one of the reasons for the growth of Islam over the past century has been that becoming a Muslim is a one-way street. Whether by birth or conversion (historically likely to have been a forced conversion) once you are a Muslim the only way out, under the Sharia, is
death.
When Political Islam really does advocate jihad to achieve world domination, then anyone deeply concerned with humanity and human rights will be critical. Of all the existing ideologies, Political Islam remains the greatest danger to humanity.
Political Islam has been neither tamed nor moderated by progressive forces. It has the power to inspire the terrorist mind, and, through its ties to oil-rich states, the funds to pursue its plans.
Islamic apologists often claim that many so-called violations of human rights are based on a misreading of the Holy Quran and will quote this or that sura in its defense. But the arguments against Political Islam are not against the holy texts but against the Sharia as it is practiced today in Islamic states. We are told that Islam is a religion of peace and that the struggle, jihad, to impose Islam by conquest is not to be taken literally. But for Political Islam it is. Ask the suicide bombers. The only possible response to the charge of misunderstanding or misreading Islam is to look at the reality of what is happening in those countries such as Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and northern Nigeria where the Sharia now
holds sway.
The world is a battleground of social movements and ideas. It took people in the west over 400 years of often-bloody struggle to gain the right to criticize Christianity. Even now, that right is still not fully recognized. In Britain, for example, there is still a law against blasphemy, and many Islamic clerics have argued that it should be extended to cover Islam as well. It should be scrapped.
Once we are prevented from expressing our point of view in the market place of ideas we will be heading back to the Dark Ages. We must recognize that we now live in a global community. Society is far larger, more diverse and far more complex than the primitive tribal society of 7th century Arabia that gave birth to Islam. It is time to renounce the idea that anyone should be ruled exclusively by the Sharia.
More than ever before, people need a secular state that respects freedom of religion, and freedom from religion for those that have none, and human rights founded on the principle that power belongs to the people. This means that we must reject the claims of the Islamists that sovereignty belongs exclusively to Allah – by which they mean His representatives, that is, themselves. Indeed it demands
that the very concept of an Islamic state be challenged. The imposition of Sharia law for political ends must be opposed.
What is needed is nothing less than the secularization of Islamic society, and the establishment of the idea that individual conscience must be our guide and the judge of personal, private conduct. But secularization cannot be imposed from outside by force.
Attempts by America and its allies to impose democracy and human rights on the Islamic world will rightly be resisted as neocolonialism and will simply drive more and more Muslims into the arms of the extremists. The onus is on us to promote the ideals of personal freedom, progress and change from within Muslim society, with help from those in the rest of the world who share our ideals and hopes for the future.
We call on all Muslims and all who value freedom, democracy and human rights to support our campaign: NO to Political Islam, YES to Human Rights."
____
So perhaps I should say it's Political Islam which is the worst religion for women - and I did note earlier that there are many moderate Muslims -in the west- who oppose the abuse of women (honor killings, female castration, etc.) and are for equal rights for them, don't demand the veil, women are educated, allowed to work, etc.
However, one problem, is moderate Muslims in the west sometimes get death threats from the extremist/Political Muslims - so it isn't just non-Muslims they fling death threats at.
And, as the article indicates, it's really up to Muslims themselves to change things from within. It's not so much up to us 'infidels'.
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/10/08 21:22
A: Sassy
I agree, and I think your right about the Phallic Symbol , ( La Papa ) of the Church, the entrance of most churches may be likened to a womb.
In those respects there is no mention of it to the people and I am not sure the Builders wanted any one to know.
Your also right about the radical religion Muslim Religion.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/11/08 23:16
A: Yes Judith, I've heard of church entrances likened to a womb; makes sense -(after all, even the Catholic church, as patriarchal as they are, still refer to the church as 'she')- and some of our more ancient churches do have rather 'suggestive' designs on the entrances; very 'feminine' ones.
Some interesting things I found (most in a book by Barbara Walker).
Arabia
"The land's original Allah was Al-Lat, part of the female trinity along with Kore or Q're, the Virgin, and Al-Uzza, the Powerful One, the triad known as Manat, the Threefold Moon."
"Like the Virgin Mary, Arabia's Queen of Heaven received a mortal form and a subordinate position as Fatima, Mohammed's 'daughter.' "
"Fatima's name means The Creatress. A Shi'a text, Omm-al-Kitab, said she appeared 'at the creation of the material world,' crowned, seated on a throne, holding a sword, and 'ornamented with a million varicolored shimmering lights' which illuminated the entire garden of Paradise."
"Her symbol as Holy Virgin, the crescent moon, still appears on Islamic flags. She is called Al-Zahra, 'Bright-Blooming,' a former title of the Great Mother. It is said the symbol of her hand, surmounting the solar disc, 'represents the whole religion of Islam.' "
"Within Islam, 'deviant' sects like Shi'ites or Sufis carried on Tantric worship of the female principle, maintaining that the feminine powers of sexuality and maternity were the powers that held the universe together. The greatest medieval poet of Sufism, Ibn al-Farid, was known as the 'sultan of lovers.' He said true divinity was female, and Mecca was the womb of the earth."
"Ibn El-Arabi, the 'greatest master' of Sufi mystics, was accused of blasphemy because he said the godhead is female."
____
Of course thesedays, what you might read, due to the 'patriarchal takeover' is that Allah is an ancient moon-god. Somewhere along the way (and there are many instances of this), a goddess was turned into a god.
so now you'll read stuff such as this: "In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters."
The triple goddess is demoted to being daughters of a patriarchal moon-god (after having had his 'sex change operation'.)
In the 1950's, archaeology dug up some stuff related to what they assumed was 'the moon-god'. And in the discoveries they made mentioned here, you can see the patriarchal 'assumptions' made -freakin' hilarious, really!:
"Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates that the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon-god."
He mentions reliefs and votive bowls used in 'worship of the so-called 'daughters' - who are actually the triple goddess. And he just 'assumes' that the crescent moon above the 'trio' of 'women' (or rather, goddesses) must be a sign for the moon-god. Never does it enter his mind, that the crescent moon was 'originally' a sign of the 'Holy Virgin', of "the triad known as Manat, the Threefold Moon." But, that's the patriarchal takeover for you - along with that, comes the patriarchal mind-set. not much you can do there.
You can see a trace of goddess worship here, even though the author 'assumes' -due to patriarchal bias- that .."bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god."
Now, there's much evidence of women in ancient society baking various types of bread for worship of the goddess - not god. Even the Old Testament mentions this. That's gifts to 'the Queen of Heaven'. (who is ridiculed and slandered and her shrines are destroyed in the OT... a sign of the patriarchal takeover.)
one more interesting mythical/legendary thing I found, to end this post:
"One of the hidden secrets of medieval bardic romance is the Arabian origin of the Waste Land motif, most prominent in the Holy Grail cycle of tales. Despite monkish efforts to convert it into a Christian chalice, the Grail was generally recognized as a female symbol, whose loss implied fear for the fertility of the earth. Crusaders had seen for themselves the desolation of Arabia Deserta, one of the most lifeless regions on earth. They heard the Shi'ite heretics' explanation for it: Islam had offended the Great Goddess, and she had cursed the land and departed. Now
nothing would grow there."
"Western mystics thought the same calamity would strike Europe if the spirit of the Mother were not brought back from the limbo to which the Christian church had consigned her. This may have been a reason for the frenzy of cathedral-building in honor of 'Our Lady,' the Queen of Heaven, during the 12th and 13th centuries."
"The Waste Land theme haunted the collective psyche of the early Renaissance with a threat of conditions actually realized in the land of the infidel."
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/12/08 0:12
A: Hi Sassy
It is all booo Hunk
I stood in the spirit a few times meaning I stood out side my body. The first time was in 1972 and I was looking down at my body. Then I was looking up at the real me, and force or struggeled to come back.
I stepped out of body in 1992 , there I was standing in my kitchen with two angels, I shared what appeared to be fruit. Then I bowed and asked for permission to return to my body.
I saw my spirit re enter my physical body, and had to sit back up again because the tall of those two beings had followed me back to my body and handed me a spiritual sword. That one said "Here you forgot this and handed me a sword or large dagger." Then many prayers began to be answered for many of those I was praying for. It is only a sword of TRUTH.
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/12/08 1:40
A: I forgot to say I agree with you Sassy
Woman has taken all kinds of mistreatment for the thoughts of men. And when a woman has spiritual experiences it should not be taken out of context to use against them and or used against others.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/12/08 1:59
A: Dear Sassy,
Jesus said:
Mat-7:3 WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK THAT IS IN YOUR BROTHER'S EYE, BUT DO NOT NOTICE THE LOG THAT IS IN YOUR OWN EYE ?.
Sassy, You talk a lot !, and you keep attacking Islamic laws. You talk about a harsh punishment to few girls, forgeting that boys are punished too, one in Saudi Arabia and another in Iran, one in Canada and on in somewhere else etc, maybe ten or one hundred even more a year, I WANT YOU TO GO BACK TO THE RECORDS AND TELL ME AND THE OTHERS, HOW MANY CASES OF THOSE HAPPENS IN THE LAST YEAR OR IN THE LAST TEN YEARS.
Also , as you know in the Islamic laws "a killer [murderer] should be killed, and a thief [who steal for no need] loses his/her hand. You go and search , then tell me how many of those been punished?, in one year, or in ten years, or in the last hundred years.
Sassy, you said: 'So I'll repeat: in my opinion I think the worst religion for women is Islam.
By saying that, I think you prefer the Christian religion laws and any others, even if they do not believe in God !!!, and you think that their laws are better laws. And here some examples what their law creates:
--- The christians under their laws are the one who stoned and burned women alive all around Europe , even in north and south America by claiming they are witches, that went until the 18th century. {BIG LOG}.
--- The christians who brought millions of black African , men, WOMEN , boys and GIRLS , and made of them slave and treated them like animals {and the churches people suport their barbaric acts}, and the WOMEN AND GIRLS WERE RAPED, THAT WHAT HAPPEN TO THE WOMEN AND GIRLS UNDER THE WESTREN OCUPATION IN ALL THE COUNTRIES WHICH THEY RULED FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.. {GIG LOG}
--- In all the Western and the Eastern christian countries today , and in every town and city , the morning and evening news started with something bad, SHOOTING, KILLING, ROBING, RAPING, ASSOLT, VANDALISM, DRUG DEALERS ETC., So let us look at the statistics:
- Approximately thirteen million people (approximately 5% of the U.S. population) are victims of crime EVERY YEAR. Approximately one and a half million are victims of violent crime. [US crime statistics- 2006] {THAT IS A BIG LOG, but you will never notice it}
-There were an estimated 93,934 forcible rapes reported to law enforcement in 2005 {OF COURCE THERE ARE MANY NOT REPORTED, BECAUSE OF FEAR. the rapist under those laws will be free to do it again and to harm their victims- I hope you understand that}
- Based on SAMHSA's National Survey on Drug Use and Health [2008], 8.5% of youth (about 2.1 million youth) had experienced at least one major depressive episode during the past year. Rates of depression varied by gender and age. FEMALE YOUTH were more than twice as likely as males to have experienced a major depressive episode in the past year . { I don't think you understand the consequences, because all what you think is to try to find the speck that might be in the others eyes !!!}
-Based on the combined 2004 to 2006 National Surveys on Drug Use and Health data from current drivers aged 18 or older, 15.1% had driven under the influence of alcohol during the past year
- SAMHSA's National Survey on Drug Use and Health estimated that about 510,000 youth aged 12 to 17 (2%) used stimulants (including methamphetamines) nonmedically in the past year in 2006 {IN ONE YEAR - WOW}
Year 1999 - accidents related to alcohol:
Fatal Crash: 14,264 - Injury Crash: 201,000 - All Crashes: 458,000
then:
Persons Killed 15,976 - Persons Injured , Drivers 193,000 - Passengers 97,000 - Non Occupants 17,000
Also, the effect of drugs and alcohol are clear by creating a lot of abuse to women [wives] and children, and in general to the comunity.
Laws in Islam PROHIBIT the use of drugs and alcohol and anything that might hurt of had negative effect on the human body, and I don't think that you will like such laws, but you prefer the christian laws even when so many killed and hurt!!!.
I mentioned before that the woman [1929] in Canada [and the same in all the western countries- check the records] was not counted as a person !!!. Your grandmother if she lived at that period, she was nobody under the law!!!, But my grandmother has all her rights as a person.
- Pope John Paul II. Pope Forgives Molested Children.
"By forgiving these children, primarily churchgoing boys between the ages of 5 and 15, the pope has shown true Christian kindness,"
"John Paul II issued a papal decree Monday absolving priest-molested children of all sin. " {THE CHILDREN ARE VICTIMS. THEY DID NOT DO ANY WRONG TO BE FORGIVED. THE PRIESTS SHOULD BE PUNISHED, AND NOT PROTECTED} . [No such thing happen in mosques , because there is Muslim laws]
- "The Roman Catholic Church has recently been plagued by a spate of lawsuits and allegations that it covered up sexual abuse by priests by moving the accused to new parishes, by paying off the accusers and by convincing judges to seal the case files on priests accused of preying on children." {molested children in the churches are facts, and it happen all around the world for two thousand years}
The top 20 in crime around the world:
#1 United States: 23,677,800
#2 Germany: 6,264,720
#3 United Kingdom: 5,170,830
#4 France: 3,771,850
#5 South Africa: 3,422,740
#6 Russia: 2,952,370
#7 Canada: 2,476,520
#8 Japan: 2,443,470
#9 Italy: 2,205,780
#10 India: 1,764,630
#11 Korea, South: 1,543,220
#12 Chile: 1,409,940
#13 Mexico: 1,363,710
#14 Netherlands: 1,305,640
#15 Poland: 1,266,910
#16 Spain: 923,271
#17 Thailand: 565,108
#18 Ukraine: 553,594
#19 Finland: 530,270
#20 Denmark: 504,240 (pop. 5 millions)
then comes Turkey, #28 [Muslim country} Turkey: 286,482 (pop. 67 millions)
Sassy, You said: "Turkish republic Kemal Ataturk. Kemal was the product of secular education and had always admired Western culture. He pursued a program of westernisation that affected all aspects of Turkish life " {I DO SEE THE RESULT OF JOINING THE WESTEN CHRISTIAN WORLD [westernisation], THE FIGURES SHOW THAT VERY CLEAR. these figures came from American sources.}
In the west, many elder man and woman put in homes away from their children to be abused by strangers, that is a fact, and the number growing by the year. Muslim elders are looked after and taken care in their homes by their own children, and their families. That is the law and shariaa of Islam.
So I'll repeat Jesus words: WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK THAT IS IN YOUR BROTHER'S EYE, BUT DO NOT NOTICE THE LOG THAT IS IN YOUR OWN EYE ?.
You should be fair and understanding when you put your judgment, and you should know the difference between the laws of God and the laws of the churches and the laws of men, the better laws are the one that gives result and the one that protect people, not the ones which protect and help the criminal.
God bless you.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/12/08 15:04
A: "Woman has taken all kinds of mistreatment for the thoughts of men. And when a woman has spiritual experiences it should not be taken out of context to use against them and or used against others."
I agree Judith. Many of my spiritual experiences I just don't talk about - otherwise you may face much ridicule. best to be cautious about who you discuss them with.
No to political islam yes to human rights!
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/12/08 15:52
A: I believe .in equal human rights for everyone.And I know what it's like to be ridiculed for special spiritual experiences.I didn't saying anything about my personal ones until last year.It's usually skeptics who laugh.mostly because they believe in proving it.
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/12/08 17:11
A: Panluna
I think you already know, that if there is validity to your experiences they prove them self . If to no one else, they are proved to you, or the one who has them. If not I just dismiss them.
Most Of mine have come true and I am just waiting on other expieriences , to see what happens.
If I have a dream (and did have one as a matter of fact), in 1969) that I am going to be in and accident, and then I am in an accident, I know in my heart , I have been fore warned.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/12/08 21:37
A: Hi Sassy,
"No to political islam yes to human rights! "
Your statement here is single sided {Islam is a religion and not a political party, - when the Democrats and Republicas depends on the Angelican, Catholics churches, or the Jews Synagogues to win then we can say that those religions became more politicals, so I do see that you are short sighted, even I did brought many , a lot of examples in the many post that I wrote before.
Did you ever watched decomentaries about the christians in some part of Africa, Asia Central & south America even with natives of Canada, {This morning Canada PM Mr. Harper , and after presure came to apologize to the natives for the bad treatment at shhools and the molestation of their children in churches !!!} which shows you the place of people and specially of women in those societies and they been abused, their religion mixed with other beliefs, which they inherited, and their women are treated as she was treated hundreds or thousands years ago,
I think that your knowledge does not go further than what you call the wester world !!!.
NO TO POLITICAL HINDUISM, BUDDHISM, JEWDAISM, CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM, AND YES TO HUMAN RIGHTS.
Muslims believe in GOD, the God of Adam and Eve, the God of Abraham , Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. HE is my God and your God, if we believe in HIM.
UNDER THE SUN AND IN THE SIGHT OF GOD WE ARE MAN AND WOMAN, FATHER AND MOTHER, BROTHER AND SISTER AND WE ALL BORN FREE AND EQUAL. THE ONE WHO IS BETTER, IS THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF GOD, AND THE RIGHTEOUS. {That is according to the Quran and Jesus teachings}
"For Richer or Poorer",
"About 50% of first marriages for men under age 45 may end in
divorce, and between 44 and 52% of women's first marriages
may end in divorce for these age groups. The likelihood of a divorce
is lowest for men and women age 60, for whom 36 % of men
and 32 percent of women may divorce from their first marriage by
the end of their lives. A similar statistical exercise was performed in
1975 using marital history data from the Current Population Survey
(CPS).
{ TOO MANY BROKEN FAMILIES IN THE WESTERN WORLD, AND THE CHILDREN, BOYS AND GIRLS ARE THE ONE WHO SUFFERS}
Percentage of Divorces in Selected Countries, 1996
Country Divorces
(as % of
marriages)
1996
Belarus 68%
Russia 65
Sweden 64
Latvia 63
Ukraine 63
Czech Republic 61
Belgium 56
Finland 56
Lithuania 55
United Kingdom 53
Moldova 52
United States 49% # 12
then Muslim countries
Albania 7 # 44
Turkey 6 # 45
I do think that Islam religion do keep the families safe and together, and protect the children.
There are hundreds of film about the life of the children and how much they suffer when their home broke apart .
God bless you.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/13/08 0:11
A: Sam -my stmt isnt single sided! political Islam is where it rules society - in all ways. Under this type of Islam, women have it bad - and men in some cases also have it bad. So I'm hangin' with my 'friends' the moderate Muslims, who don't live in countries ruled by Islam -they accept secular laws because many of them in the west protect women moreso than 'any' religious court. So I say, along with many moderate Muslims: "No to political Islam, yes to human rights! (i.e. human includes women) There was one western country I recall, a few years back, where the rad Muslims wanted to bring in Shar'ia law, and it was really good to see some Muslim men protesting along with the women, saying no to it ! One Muslim man was from Pakistan - him and his wife - and said it's terrible how women are treated under Shar'ia law, and that that was one reason why they escaped to the west! So hurrah for Mod Muslims. You rock !
___
TheReligionofPeace.com
Guide to Understanding Islam
What does the
Religion of Peace
Teach About...
Wife-Beating
Question:
Does Islam permit a man to hit his wife?
Summary Answer:
Yes, but only if she doesn't do as he asks. The beating must cease if the woman complies with her husband's demands. Beating is also intended to be the last resort, behind verbal abuse and abandonment.
Muhammad, himself, is recorded as physically striking his favorite wife (from her own testimony). It is not known how he treated his less-favored wives.
The Qur'an:
Sura (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
From the Hadith:
Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said : Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.
Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."
Ishaq 969 - Commands that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.
Muslim apologists often squirm over this relatively straightforward Qur'an verse (4:34). Their masterful aerobics of denial inspired us to write an article:
Wife Beating- Good Enough for Muhammad, Good Enough for You
According to Islamic law, a husband may strike his wife for any one of the following four reasons:
- She does not attempt to make herself beautiful for him (ie. "let's herself go")
- She refuses to meet his sexual demands
- She leaves the house without his permission or a "legitimate reason"
- She neglects her religious duties
Any of these are also sufficient grounds for divorce.
Finally, when Muslim apologists sometimes say that Muhammad commanded that women not be harmed, they are actually basing this on what he said before or during battle, such as in Bukhari (59:447), when Muhammad orders that all the men of Quraiza be killed and the women and children be taken as slaves. (Having your husband murdered and being forced into sexual slavery apparently doesn't qualify as "harm" under the Islamic model).
But, in fact, there are a number of cases in which Muhammad did have women killed in the most brutal fashion. One was Asma bint Marwan, a mother or five, who wrote a poem criticizing the Medinans for accepting Muhammad after he had ordered the murder of an elderly man. In this case, the prophet's assassins literally pulled a sleeping infant from her breast and stabbed her to death.
After taking Mecca in 630, Muhammad also ordered the murder of a slave girl who had merely made up songs mocking him. The Hadith are rife as well with accounts of women planted in the ground on Muhammad's command and pelted to death with stones for sexual immorality.
In summary, according to both the Qur'an and Hadith, a woman may indeed have physical harm done to her if the circumstances warrant, with one such allowance being in the case of disobedience. This certainly does not mean that all Muslim men beat their wives, only that Islam allows them. "
_____
Under Islam, women are stoned to death for adultery - the men aren't though; they get away with it.
But recall what Jesus said in the NT when the hypocritical men (many of whom likely visited prostitutes), are about to stone a woman -who is a prostitute- to death. Jesus tells them that whoever hasn't sinned should throw the first stone. The dudes all put the rocks down, and the woman goes free - being told to 'sin no more' by Jesus. Still, it's a pretty groovy thing Jesus did. That's what I say to all those who stone women under the rule of Islam - let those who haven't sinned throw the first stone.
Jesus has never condoned wife beating; in fact, I don't recall even ol' sexist Paul saying wife beating was allowed?
God/dess Bless
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/13/08 0:25
A: It's good though to see that their are feminists (I know, such a 'nasty' word these days), in some of these Islamic countries. You go sista's - you've got a hard and rough road ahead of you ! But I support you one hundred per cent.
"Iran: Feminists protest women's repression"
"Rome, 12 June (AKI) - Iranian women have marked the fourth anniversary of a famous women's protest in silence.
The government did not approve any protests, marches or sit-ins for "women's solidarity day" to mark the anniversary of 11 June 2005.
On the first anniversary, 70 feminists were arrested and many others were sentenced to up to six years in prison for calling for a review of laws such as the abolition of polygamy and equal rights.
Fariba Davoodi Mohajer is one of the feminists who were arrested in 2005. Several months ago, while in the US for several conferences, she was sentenced to six years in prison. Now the journalist and militant feminist lives in Washington.
Davoodi Mohajer is an Islamic feminist who still appears in public dressed in a headscarf.
"We are forced to be silent, for every request to meet peacefully is rejected," Davoodi Mohajer told Adnkronos International (AKI).
“The youngest ones who are looking to meet women in public places to join the campaign, "One
