Name:Shlomo •
Title: Creating A Messiah •
Date posted: 04/22/07 1:29
Q: Honesty before reading this, set your biases to the side and think reasonably and logically by using your mind. We were all brought up in certain religious households, so just as you use your mind to make everyday descisions in your life, do not become confused or disgusted. This is not to show animosity towards people, only certain alleged facts.
Jesus becomes transformed into the Christ.
1. Jesus was totally unsuccessful in redeeming the Jews politically and therefore the early Christians could no longer look upon this as the driving force of the Messiah. In other words his redemption had to be given another meaning. The followers taught that the mission was not to redeem from political oppression, but from spiritual evil.
2. Once the Messiah's mission was redefined, it started to expand with the idea that spiritual evil was worldwide. The followers began to teach that Jesus had come to redeem the whole world. They rejected the appropiate view that he would come to redeem the Jewish people and their land first and then the rest of the world. In other words the message was universal, but only spiritual and not of this world.
3. Jesus had been beaten and humiliated like a common rebel, his followers believed that he had only preached repentence and good works and therefore could not be a common criminal. They were faced with a dilemma, if Jesus was the Messiah why did he have to undergo suffering? Why did G-d not save him from this? But the followers came up with the answer that it was the will of G-d. But that does not answer it fully, why did Jesus have to suffer if he did not sin? The followers found an ingenious solution: he died because of the sins of mankind. That still leaves an open question, since suffering and death had always been around, what sin was so great that Jesus needed to be a human sacrifice? Another ingenious answer by the followers, to atone for Adam's sin. The so-called "original sin symptom."
4. But another question arises, how could the Messiah die a shameful death? The followers created a sequel, the ressurection of the dead. So the followers taught that Jesus had risen from the dead and that he was the first to do so. Therefore Jesus was not mortal like man.
5. Jesus followers could not rationalize what had happened to their Messiah, so they had to report that the will of the Messisah was exactly the will of G-d. The followers embellished the idea that his will was uniquely related to G-d, so he had to be related to G-d in some unknown special way.
6. Jesus spoke of "my father in heaven" this was a common poetic expression still used in Jewish prayers. But to the followers, this was a much more literal connotation. The Greeks already had these types of legends about men who have been fathered by gods visiting mortal women [ Plato, Pythagoras, Alexander the Great ]. The followers interpreted this expression literally to mean Jesus had a genetic relationship with G-d and became the "son of G-d." This is the first step of deification of Jesus and not very difficult for the pagan world to adopt and it was easy to accept a trinity. So Jesus became a "deus focia," a[G_d - man ].
7. Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies required for a Messiah and his followers came up with another scheme, "he would return to the world in a second coming" with a Day of Judgement to complete his mission.
8. In the mean time while Jesus is gone, the followers instructed the people to address their prayers to Jesus. In this set up, Jesus becomes a mediator between G-d and man [ idolatry ].
***********************
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/22/07 4:43
A: To: Shlomo
Nonsense.
Ask me why.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/22/07 17:15
A: Mark Stilt,
Why?
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/23/07 8:27
A: So Jesus had spin doctors even back then? Who knew?!! Anyway, I find your analysis, Shlomo, to be brillant. I'm glad to see you're posting on this site to counter the fundamentalists who are blind to see anything but what they want to believe. My belief is that Jesus did not intend to start Christianity and would be surprised by what his teachings were twisted into. If they found his tomb, which is a Jewish tomb, that just further shows in my mind that he lived and died as a Jew. If he ever returns, as many are convinced he will, I think he will tell people to follow the Torah and nothing else. Christianity will have to adapt. G-d Bless.
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/23/07 9:24
A: TO: Shlomo
1. Jesus' object in preaching to the Jewish Nation was NOT to effect a political redemption. Numerous instances might be cited of his urging individuals to cooperate with the Roman authorities, rather than resist them. The following examples should suffice:
A. "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:10)
B. "Agree with thine adversary quikly, whiles thou art in the
way with him" (Matthew 5:25)
C. "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil" (Matthew 5:39)
D. "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him
twain" (Matthew 5:41) {Roman law actually permitted Roman
soldiers to engage in the practice of compelling Jews to carry
burdens for them, the distance of a mile; here Jesus actually
encourages his followers to support the Roman regime by
literally 'going the extra mile'}.
E. "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44)
F. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's"
(Matthew 22:21)
G. "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the
sword shall perish with the sword."
"Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall
presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"
(Matthew 26:52, 53)
H. "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this
world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be
delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36)
2. You suggest that the "appropriate view" is that the messiah would FIRST redeem the Jewish people and their land; after which the rest of the world would be redeemed. You further suggest that Jesus' followers transformed this original doctrine into a message of universal salvation without any temporal element to it.........a "spiritual" rather than a physical salvation.
I agree with you that Jesus' message SHOULD HAVE included the promise of RESTORATION of the land and the Kingdom to Israel.
In fact, it did!!! Jesus and his Apostles taught that doctrine publicly.
The only question the Apostles had, was WHEN this restoraton would occur.
At one point, they asked the resurrected Jesus: "Lord, wilt thou at this time RESTORE again the kingdom to Israel?"
His response was simply: "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." (Acts 1: 6,7)
Nonetheless, the Apostles continued to preach that such a restoration would take place (Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11: 23-27), insisting with great force however (as had Jesus himself), that said restoration could occur ONLY with the appearance and work of Elijah the prophet (Matthew 17:11 and Mark 9:12...........Compare these to Malachi 4:5,6).
3. You ask "Why did G-d not save him from" being "beaten and humilated".
Yet the prophet Isaiah (speaking messianically) penned these words: "He is despised and rejected of men.........Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows..........But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities...........with his stripes we are healed............the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all............for the transgression of my people was he stricken..............when thou shalt make his soul AN OFFERING FOR SIN" (Isaiah 53:3,4,5,6,8,10).
Daniel wrote that "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but NOT FOR HIMSELF" (Daniel 9:26).
These verses plainly demonstrate that the message of a "human sacrifice" for sin was taught by the ancient prophets.
4. You state that to explain the problem of a shameful death for G-ds Messiah, the followers of Jesus "created a sequel" of "resurrection". Yet the resurrection is another doctrine plainly taught by the ancient prophets.
The LORD speaking through Isaiah stated: "Thy dead men shall live, together with MY dead body shall they arise." (Isaiah 26:19) Note that the LORD there refers to HIS OWN dead body rising.
Speaking through Hosea G-d said: "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death". (Hosea 13:14)
5. You state that Jesus' "followers embelished the idea that his will was uniquely related to G-d, so he had to be related to G-d in some unknown special way."
Yet Jesus' own claim to divine sonship (John 9:35-38) necessarily places him in a unique relationship with his Father.
David, speaking of this relationship wrote: "Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalms 2:12)
Habakkuk speaking of G-d stated: "Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation WITH THINE ANOINTED" (Habakkuk 3:13)thus reflecting the relationship of the G-d and His Messiah in their work of salvation.
6. Yes, Jesus' references to G-d as "father in heaven" was a common expression of the day.
His frequent use of the term DOES NOT (however) weaken it's special meaning in reference to Himself. Jesus consistently refered to "my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20: 17); always denoting his own distinctive relationship with G-d, as compared to that of his disciples.
He did not however deny that all of humanity were also the children of Diety (John 10:34, 35); yet when so affirming that fact, he was careful to set apart his own unique status of Sonship (John 10:36).
Was there actually a "genetic relationship with G-d" (as you put it)???
YES!!!
7. You state that "Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies required for a Messiah", requiring his followers to revise their message.
On the contrary, I think that the scriptural references I have already provided will demonstrate that even the prophecies of the Old Testament taught of a suffering Son and Messiah who would "restore" the kingdom to Israel at a future unspecified period of time.
8. You say that with Jesus "gone, the followers instructed the people to address their prayers to Jesus".
As a matter of fact, they were instructed to address their prayers only to the Father, IN THE NAME OF Jesus (John 14:13, 16:23, Colossians 3:17).
You further imply that anybody who mediates between G-d and man is guilty of idolatry; and yet every priest in Israel made "atonement" for the congregation of Israel (Numbers 15:25), thus acting as a mediator between G-d and man.
Abraham pleaded for Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18:23-32) thus becoming a mediator.
Indeed, the LORD even "made of thee" (Moses) "a god to Pharaoh" (Exodus 7:1).
In an earlier place, the LORD stated that in Moses' relationship with his brother Aaron, "thou shalt be to him INSTEAD of God" (Exodus 4:16).
By your definition, that is idolatry, plain and simple. Yet, this was a relationship that was specifically directed by G-d himself.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/23/07 21:03
A: Mark,
Daniel 9: was fulfilled in Ezra's time.
Human sacrifice was not taught in the sense you are refering to. It is an abhorence to G_d. You need to understand the purpose of a Kohen and the animal sacrifices. You have taken this topic out of context.
Yeshuyahu [Isaiah] 53: does not apply to a messiah, the victim is Israel. You have taken this one as well out of its context.
Exodus 7:1 "master over Paro," not g_d to Paro. You have mistranslated
and out of context.
Idolatry does not necessarily mean worshipping a g_d of stone or wood. The worship of a messiah, angel, mediator, etc. are forms of idolatry. Any worship, other than directly to G-d, is idolatry. Devarim [Deut.] 4:39
"Know this day, and lay it in your heart, that the L-rd is G_d, in the heavens above and on the earth below, there is none else." Yerimiyah [Jer.] 25:24 "Do I not fill heaven and earth, says G_d." Yeshiyahu [Isaiah] 6:3 " The whole earth is filled with his glory." VaYichra [Lev.] 23:19 "G_d is not a mortal that he should lie,nor a man, that he should change his mind." G_d does not suddenly decide to visit the earth in a human body. A G_d who fulfills and sustains all creation does not have to visit earth in human form. G_d is the Ultimate , the Infinite, the All Powerful Creator of all things. To say that any man was G_d is the height of absurdity. To say that G_d needs a mediator is to deny His infinite wisdom. To place G_d as a man is also to make Him finite, which is impossible. Others will argue that G_d can do anything he wants, which would be correct, but this is do to their lack of understanding of who G_d is and His purpose of creation.
No matter how many miracles a prophet might produce he can not change the basic principle. If a man tells us to commit idolatry, he is a false prophet, no matter how many wonders he pulls out of his hat. Devarim [ Deut. ] 13:2 "If there rise among you a prophet, or a dreamer, and he gives you a sign or a miracle. And the sign or miracle comes to pass and he calls on you, saying, Let us go after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us worship them. You shall not listen to that prophet or dreamer. For G_d is testing you, to see whether you love the L-rd your G_d with all your heart and with all your soul." This is all inclusive, no room for error is permitted.
The real Massiach [ Messiah] was cleary developed by the prophets. He is a leader of the Jews, strong in wisdom power and spirit. It is he who will bring complete redemption to the Jewish people both spiritually and physically. Along with this, he will bring eternal peace, love, prosperity and moral perfection to the entire world. He will be entirely human in origin. He will be born of ordinary human parents and is of flesh and blood like all mortals. Evil and Tyanny will not be able to stand up before the Messiah, but he is primarily a king of peace. His first task is to redeem Israel from exile and servitude. In doing this he will also redeem the entire world from evil. Oppression, suffering, war and all forms of godliness will be abolished. Mankind will thus be perfected and man's sins against G_d, as well as his transgressions against fellow man, will be eliminated. All forms of warfare and strife between nations will also vansih in the Messianic era. He will bring all people to G_d. The Jewsih people will dwell freely in their land. There will be an ingathering of the exiles when all Jews return to Israel. This will bring all nations to acknowledge G_d of Israel and accept the truth. Redeemption will be from G_d alone, by no other. This position can only belong to G_d himself.
It is necessary to keep things in its true context, to use the method of contextual elimination, as the new covenant writers did, to fit their agenda, is mis-leading and of a grevious error.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/24/07 2:18
A: Dear Shlomo,
We can through human logic and reason agree that since the start of time, most people have not taken well with rulers that were not of their own (i.e. Roman Empire). And even to this day- we know this to be true by simply turning on our news.
God can do anything- simply because He is God. He is perfect and can do as He wills. He doesn’t even have to care about us. But lucky for us, he chooses to. He led the Hebrews out of Egypt through Moses. Why did he even bother? Why care? He’s God and could and can have everything and anything he wants. Why be put out for us?
God is the opposite of hypocrisy. If this is true, then how could he ever judge human lives- when he has never lived one? How does one think that would go over, and for how long? Is it logical to imagine an eternity of order? Not because of God- but because of our own nature. Look what we do, as it is, to one another…
Imagine God making the statement that Heaven is paradise forever and ever- with the likes of us?
Blessed are the victims of the holocaust. What they suffered was an unspeakable, horrific, monstrous crime against human life. Imagine our loved ones who have suffered so greatly going before a God in judgment who says he understands, from the safety and comfort zone of his throne.
How could one believe it? How could one possibly judge human lives, when he himself never lived one? How is that balanced, perfect, and righteous? Honestly, would it be enough for most for God to say to the victims of this world that he kept his distance because he didn’t want us by duress, but by faith- when he himself is clueless to our suffering? God forces no one to believe in him.
How many have heard others (if not themselves) yell out in anguish from their despair- why me God?
How could God truly understand, mourn, and suffer with us if he has no idea of how it feels. It’s not enough to have created human life- but to have lived it, with us!
It’s true, God gave us reason, but he doesn’t dictate that reason. It was the point.
And with reason, comes free-will- we certainly steer it and are responsible for it. It is how and why we can learn.
Some would be damned before they would go against anything that’s not yet humanly defined, their dogma, religion, or lack of, tradition, custom, comfort zone- or to admit they were wrong. That is why pride is a sin.
Away from human life, we can’t truly make God neither non-existing, nor into something he’s not.
We play the blame game. God is an easy target. But for those who want logic- how is it rational to imagine if God was out of the mix, those who would use God in order to address a conflict by violent means would some how become tolerate? We can be a very violent, impatient, sinful being. Even Jesus spoke of it in the Gospels- that we like it. If God was out of the mix, those who would use him in that way would simply find something else.
Through Jesus Christ, God certainly understands our suffering. Before him in Heaven, no one can ever deny him of that. It is one of many attributes that make God perfect.
Some cant’ believe Jesus was the Messiah because they expect this warrior God who resolves all disputes with destructive force, instead of the peaceful nature of Christ. There are even those who claim to be His who will skip over Jesus’ teachings while linking violent measures in his name. There is much to go around.
Even David was rejected by God to build his temple- because he had too much blood on his hands. The blood spilled during the days of Joshua was because the people would not comply- to God. But when Jesus came, the fabric changed in God’s already existing plan.
When God judges He is correct. But it is not the true nature of him- as even when humankind judges in a court of law. It is necessary- but not desired. We can look to Jesus, through His Gospels, to know God’s true nature.
Jesus was the foretold Messiah. Through Him, a new gift was given- in an “already existing” plan from the beginning- salvation through redemption. But when that gift was given- it was offered to all of humankind, giving opportunity to change, until one’s last breath. Because He is the creator of all- not just some.
When one kills in his name, not only do we judge another, (God’s job), but we take away this gift from another prematurely.
And if those think that I am incorrect- we should ask ourselves this:
What is the greater sin- to kill or to have thought of killing?
He is balanced. And in balance comes give and take. You can not offer salvation to one- but all. God can do whatever He wants- but this is how He is perfect- the opposite of hypocrisy and evil. And it is why we should fear him- since he will not go against his plan- for anyone.
I can imagine no one would shy away from their works being labeled “ingenious” however, that, in itself, seems embellished- unless it was truly given by God, himself.
Jesus did not fail. He conquered death and sin. Just because most don’t understand His second coming- it doesn’t mean it is not true. Logic can tell one through world history, that statement to be true in other circumstances. It would not be the first.
It is not idolatry if they are, indeed, one in the same.
God made a promise with Abram and his descendants. (God gave blessings to the Jews.) [Genesis 15:18-21]
God blessed Ishmael, son of Abram. (God gave blessings to the Arab nations.) [Genesis 17:20]
Jesus, God’s son, had devout followers. (God gave blessings to the Christians.) [John 2:22]
Jesus, the Messiah, ate and drank with the Samarians. (God gave blessings to the non-believers of above.) [John 4:9]
God can neither be boxed, nor owned by any one group. He created us all, He did not bless one and the rest of us became filler. From that, whether we follow him is up to us. We decide- as it should be.
God is awesome- and absolutely brilliant!
Blessings, ED
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/24/07 6:09
A: TO: Shlomo
After providing you with so many direct quotes from scripture, you have chosen to dismiss them by saying that I've taken everything "out of context"!!
I have cited my evidences; now it is up to you to SHOW ME HOW I AM WRONG AND WHY I AM WRONG!
Merely saying I am wrong and then dismissing me with a wave, isn't going to cut it.
You tell me that my reference to the Messiah in Daniel 9:26 was fulfilled in Ezra's time. If that's so, it should be easy to explain. Please do.
Furthermore, if said prophecy was indeed fulfilled in Ezra's time, do you mean to suggest that the Messiah appeared at that time????
If so, then he will certainly have to make a second appearance in order to fulfill the rest of the prophecies you state have yet to be fulfilled. Thus, you face the same dilemma that you accuse the Christians of.
You state that Isaiah 53 does NOT apply to the Messiah; but rather to Israel. Yet, many prominent rabbi's have affirmed for centuries that those verses DO apply to the Messiah. As evidence, I submit the following few examples:
Rabbi Moses Alsc hech (1508-1600) said:
"Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view."
Rabbi Yafeth Ben Ali (second half of the 10th Century):
"As for myself, I am inclined to regard it as alluding to the Messiah."
MAIMONIDES (1135-1204) wrote to Rabbi Jacob Alfajumi:
"Likewise said Isaiah that He (messiah) would appear without acknowledging a father or mother: 'He grew up before him as a tender pland and as a root out of a dry ground' etc." (Isaiah 53:2)
You state that I have mistranslated Exodus 7:1 where it is written (King James Version): "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and A aron thy brother shall be thy prophet."
Yet, this same verse as translated "according to the Masoretic Text......with constant consultation of Jewish Authorities" AND published by the Jewish Publication Society of America reads:
"And the LORD said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in God's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."
The actual word rendered as "God" in each instance is "Elohim".
You state that I have mistranslated this verse; but I didn't translate it. That has been done by far greater minds than mine or yours.
That some authorities M IGHT render "Elohim" as "master" does not negate the fact that the word is usually translated as "God" or even as "Gods".
And so it goes; you have ignored the rest of my scriptural citations without so much as a comment and then going on to state your own
(often unsubstantiated) views.
If you can show me HOW and WHY I am wrong.......then I win.
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/24/07 6:12
A: Rephrase: If you CAN'T show me HOW and WHY I'm wrong............then I win!!!
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/25/07 21:16
A: Isn't the Messiah supposed to appear at the End Of Days?According to the Mayans Doomday Clock that's suppose to happen December 2012.Are we looking forward to this?I think we ought to make the best of our days.I've heard end of the world prophecies before and I don't see it happening yet... not for a long time to come.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/25/07 23:01
A: Panluna,
Some say not until the 6000 yrs are up, if so, we still have 239 yrs to go. But many things can bring it on much earlier, begining with the present to any increment in time. But the primary key are the signs, not the time.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/26/07 2:08
A: Elizabeth,
Can G_d forgive sins without bloodshed or becoming a demi-god?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/26/07 11:20
A: Let's pray for world peace and a future.
Name:JohnD •
Date: 04/26/07 13:48
A: I think its MUCH sooner. The evening star sure is bright right now. The dow just hit 13000....all is good on wall street. The morning star was its brightest in 2000.....any thing else happen in 2000...?
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/27/07 14:08
A: Hi Shlomo,
I look forward to responding to your question when I am able to.
(Good question. It's appreciated!)
