Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Title: Catch-up history of text analysis •
Date posted: 01/06/08 10:23
Q: Hello to all.
I have come to this forun in Jan 08.
Perhaps this discussion took place.
But, I think it useful to not that this forum brings together people with different approaches to ancient literature analysis.
I hope someone will add to the very simple history of the development of text analysis I now give :
- the printing press was invented
- Luther posted his findings on a church door
- modern text analysis (exegesis) was born
- German exegetes pioneered modern exegesis
- the priests in my family's church (catholic) joined in modern Bible exegesis and Rolan Devaux wrote most of the footnotes in the first edition of the catholic Bible de Jérusalem
- others followed in his footseps
- with the advent of computers and the development of historical sciences in the modern State of Israel, the Christian hegemony over Bible exegesis gave way as exegetes from the Judaic tradition and secular specialists from fields outside of exegesis (history, archaeology, forensics...) opened up research and made it more inter-disciplinary.
When there is talk of religion, what happens ?
Out of the shadows come the voices of people of all walks of life, each of us with our own history :
I am French-Canadian and Inuit, and Irish and Scotish.
My catholic ancestors might roll over in their grave at the present discussion. Each of us, at one point or another, experience the shock of text analysis.
What many are going through now, because of this even, is what 1st year seminary students have gone through for decades! They got over it. Most went on to live faith-filled lives. Those in shock over the event of Talpiot, might take comfort in knowing that those of us who have done formal theology studies, we all went through a period of destablisation; 2nd year seminary students observe 1st year students after 3 months of study, to watch for signs of " the shock ".
Spirituality survives the input of history, text analysis and archaeology.
Spirituality changes. But, it survives.
Indie Anna in Quebec, Canada
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/06/08 11:07
A: New Testament Exegesis 101
For those of us who read post on this forum who have no standard training in New Testament text analysis method the basics are as follows :
In the Bible, the part called 'The New Testament' has 4 main books called Gospels, and another section with Letters. In between is a book called The Acts of the Apostles.
The four main books are
Marc (the oldest, or earliest book)
Mathew and Luke (who use material from Marc)
John, a book which seems to have a distinct source
These books cover time up to the death of Jesus
The Acts of the Apostles
This book covers the period following the death of Jesus
The various letters
These cover the spread of early Christianity.
Some might have heard experts speak of 'The early Jesus Movement',
as if it is different from what is written. Why?
Think of an event like the death of Elvis Presley, or Édit Piaf, or Nasser, or Ghandi, or Mao, or Stalin, or Hitler :
what is known about them by their intimate circle, toward the end of their lives, and, what becomes known about them 10, 20, 30 years after, is different.
If you are 40 years of age, ask your son or daughter what they know of Charles De Gaule, or Winston Churchill, or Hitler. Then ask your mother or father. What are the differences?
DeGaule, Churchill and Hitler each lived through the Great Depression of 1929. We're in 2008. Seventy years. We have tv, computers, and technology to help children learn about 1929.
Now, take the years 2008 and 1929, and subtract from each of those years the following numbers of years : 1900
What do you get ?
1929 2008
-1900 -1900
----------- -----------
the year 29 the year 108
Year 29 is about when Jesus died.
Year 108 is about when some Gospels were abridged.
Year 1929 is the year of the economic crash.
Year 2008 is now.
Eighty years of interval separates us from 1929.
Eighty years of interval separated some New Testament writing.
A parent who is 40 years old now who asks his or her child of 13 to say what 13 year old children know about 1929 they will get one answer.
A parent who is 40 years old now who asks someone who is 85 years of age what they know about the economic crash of 1929, they will get another answer.
Text analysis, exegesis, tries to uncover the differences between what the 13 year old child, the 40 year old parent and the 85 year old grand-parent might say about the same event.
Indie Anna in Quebec Canada
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/06/08 14:22
A: As far as I'm concerned the Bible can be read verbatum or read between the lines.It's also been used for Bible prophecy.There is software available for that.There are many books that are not included in the Holy Bible as it is published in it's current form.THE OTHER BIBLE edited by Wallis Barnstone is a good source for reading those texts.I am currently reading The Book of Mormon for another angle.The Lost Gospels and those of Mary Magdelene will give you an intimate view of her life with Jesus.Anything written during the 1st century is legit.Why the early church fathers left these books out of the main canonical text is still a mystery to me.Maybe they didn't feel that those works were important enough to fit or they conflicted with early church ideology.
Welcome to the forum.There are many really good ,educational posts and a few obnoxious ones.I learned a great deal from the many people who contributed and I went on my own quest for knowledge and the ultimate Truth and in the process I increased my library by quite a few interesting volumes added this past year.I buy my own copies so that I can take my time reading when I'm not busy doing something else.I'm just the average everyday person.I'm not a scholar but I like learning about everything.
Your public library should be able to get a copy of any book you request but if you like to own your own copy Amazon.com is a good place to buy from.That's usually where I get my stuff.
Everything goes in cycles and repeats itself over and over again.Every generation learns their own lessons and it's only the originals that count as legit.Words and stories handed are heresay and it's the person who walks in their own shoes and lives in one's own skin that knows their truth about themselves based on that person's perspective of reality.We are who we are and who other people think we are.Personally I don't take anyone for their words.Sometimes it's good practise to weigh the facts and sift through information gleaned from research which is only as good as the writer's contribution.I like to make up my own mind about everything.
Enjoy the forum.There is plenty of information contributed by the sponsors and the research team.
Bright blessings,
Panluna
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/06/08 23:28
A: Thanks Panluna, for the welcome.
As one having only seen Simcha's documentary a couple of days ago,
this is all very new. I saw him interviewed with James Cameron on CNN, a tv channel we get here in Canada, but even that interview, I only got around to seeing it about a month ago.
This phenomenon has been going on since March 07.
So, I'm way behind everybody else.
I have read Dr. Tabor's web pages and brushed up on my exegesis (which was very rusty, indeed).
Peace,
Indie
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/07/08 11:44
A: Indie,
I've been posting on this forum since last year when I watched the documentary which aired last Winter,2007 on The Discovery Channel.Believe me it's had quite an impact but on the whole it's been very educational.I expect the controversy to continue for a while longer.I missed the CNN program--the interview.
I'm curious about something and maybe you can answer my question.You wrote that you are part Innuit.My question is: There are many different native tribes in the Americas-----Did they speak a common language understandable by all of the tribes or did each tribe develope their own dialect? In other words :Did each tribe have the same word meaning the same thing or was it different among the groups.I've often wondered if they had actually warred among themselves before the European settlers arrived in the "New World' or since there was plenty of land if their territorial boundaries were respected and the tribes lived at peace with each other.I know that they lived by and respected Nature.
All I know of Native American culture is what I've watched on TV and seen in the movies.And I was always curious about their myths,legends, history and culture.I just recently read about the Hopi Prophecy Stone.
I hope you don't mind my asking. Thanks.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/07/08 12:18
A: Panluna
The Inuit live farther north than do the Dene (Indian) tribes.
The Inuit are a more monolithic cultural group in the sense that they live with snow and ice and , traditionally, hunting and fishing.
The various Dene tribes (American Indian tribes) are a veeeery
diverse group of cultures.
In Quebec City, a specialist by the name of Denys Delage, who is an antrhopologist, has done extensive research on North Eastern Dene peoples. Also, Jose Arallaino, originally from Mexico, an engineer, married someone from Quebec, Canada and he has become a specialist in Dene history.
90% of Native populations were dead from European bacteria before the year 1600. So those of us who look Native, are necessarily of mixed blood.
In Quebec, Catholicism became the dominant religion, but as a culture, we maintain a strong link to nature.
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/13/08 12:09
A: View You-Tube clips on who wrote the Bible
Mark Gooacre is a prof at Duke.
He has included on his page (scroll down) You-tube clips.
See the 'Menu' and navigate to 15 different clips.
http://www.ntgateway.com/weblog/
Mark Goodacre is Associate Professor of New Testament in the Religion Department at Duke University.
These clips have explanations that I am able to follow.
To follow them, I use my four years of text analysis studies.
If you listen to these clip, keep in mind that they present
historical text analysis information that normally
students take in over a four year period of university
studies.
Remember that all seminary students go through, during their first year of study, a kind of shock, at the realisation at how much God leaves up to
humans in the writing of his 'Word'.
All of my classmates, at a Catholic university in Canada,
came through that shock of first year text analysis studies
and went on to lead faith-filled lives.
All were able to change the way they b e l i e v e to include the
idea that once in a rare while it is possible to read a verse in a literal way.
But, often, the texts need to be explained.
If today, you travelled with a scientist who explained toxic subtances in the environment, and listened to that scientist explain environmental issues to peoples of different geographical location, you would note that
what that scientist might say to the Inuit, to Mediterraneans, to Amazonians, to Autralians, to the Chinese, to industrialists,
will present issues in ways that relate t o the listeners of the message about the environment.
To the Chinese, coal emissions would be stressed.
To Amazonians, tree cutting would be stressed.
To some, river pollution would be stressed.
To some, recycling would be stressed.
To some water consevation would be stressed.
To each audience, different aspects of environmental issues would be stressed.
A Gospel addressed to people who know about prophesies, will responde to a Gospel that related to prophesies.
The poor will respond to a message with another slant.
The Greeks will respond to a message with another slant.
The Romans will respond to a message with another slant.
As you view these You-Tube clips, keep in your mind, the analogy of the environmentalist travelling around the world, speaking to different audiences, adapting what is said, to be meaningful to a particular audience.
These clips are at a level that I, with my degree in theology,
with my major in exegesis (text analysis), I can follow.
I have to stop and replay some of the clips,
cause I'm rusty as hell in my recollections of my studies
from the 1970s, but, I manage to follow the clips.
So, if you find some of the information unusual,
give yourself a break.
Enjoy your study.
Indie Anna in Quebec, Canada
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/13/08 12:50
A: I'll look it up, thanks.
Name:Jesussaveyou •
Date: 01/17/08 16:29
A: I thought Jewish loves Christian and consider us brothers. But totally wrong they distort the true history of Jesus Christ and the foundation of the body of Christ/church/. If someone challenges them and tells the truth they call you anti Semitic and mention holocausts as excuse for their deeds.
I got some answer about what they believe and teachings from this site take time and read some of the articles.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 17:31
A: Hello J Saves You.
The site you refer to (that of M. Hoffman) and its " revisionist views ", denies the Holocaust.
As one having been raised on the border between France and Germany in the 60s, a mere 15 years after the war, I witnessed first-hand the sheer hatred of one group of people for another. I saw with my eyes the numbers tatoed onto the arms of the parents and grand-parents of my primary school friends, who had been in the camps.
You have in me a witness, who lived 20 minutes from the France-German border, in the 60s. Yes, I witnessed hatred in the hearts of Jews for Christians. But, by far, I witnessed far more hatred for Jews in the hearts of Christians.
This site exists because of the deep love and respect of a Jew for Christians Scripture and tradition.
This site exists because of the deep love and respect of a Jew for
bringing to light the bone boxes of a man and of a woman who
spoke a message of love.
I am deeply disturbed by your post.
I am deeply saddened by your post.
I am deeply surprised by your name (J saves you) and the contradiction of what you write.
I do not care to have you contribute to a page I began, in the spirit of mutual respect.
I have not clicked the " Poor Taste " button on this site,
and have you removed from this site, but I will if you post your
views again.
Indie Anna
Name:Jonn •
Date: 01/18/08 22:43
A: I was surprise to find out the Jews Talmud (Anti -Christ Book) said about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When I compared what the Muslim Quran said about Jesus Christ.
It is the weirdest book (Talmud) I ever read. So how can they get peace and stable life in their country with denying Jesus? They are still paying the price! I am praying to the Lord to give them mercy and revelation. Our precious Jesus Christ gave us peace, salvation, Eternal life, healing to our spirit, soul and flesh. He changed our attitude and perception of this world. I don’t have words to express my deep satisfaction after he changed my life. He is our bride and will come take us to live with Him. Bless be the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave us his only begotten son.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 02/01/08 21:37
A: Dear Quebec chick,
Some advice. Posting here can be deeply deeply upsetting. And to be honest, not many of these people bring answers.
But I do. And I won't disrespect you. Near Ottawa. Coffee?
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/06/08 10:14
A: .
.
Sunday morning, july 6th, 2008
Begun in Jan of this year, I come back to this page for the first time since Jan 17th, 2008.
I wish to speak of a tablet, mentioned in the NYTimes, today at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/midd-leeast/06stone.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
But- first, to Anchorite, who wrote to me just above :
thanks, "chico", for the invite.
It'll have to be virtual café, which I am drinking at the moment,
after my early Sunday morning walk.
Bonne journée.
Okay, so, allow me to quote (paste, actually), from the NYTimes article :
--------------------------------
ARTICLE TITLE :
*****Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection *****
By Ethan Bronner, July 6th, 2008
JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.
(See link above)
--------------
What I wish to say about this article is the following :
Eons ago, when I did my studies in Bible exegeSis, the only exegeTes we studied, were the works of German exegetes, and, in my case, Catholic exegetes, French speaking ones, from Quebec and from France.
My working tool was the big Jerusalem Bible, with its footnotes mostly by a Catholic priest by the name of Roland Devaux.
Since the 1980s, and because of computers, scholars from other cultures and denominations have exploded open the hegemony of Bible exegesis.
As Jewish scholars have slowly become more familiar with the work of Christian scholars, they have forced those of us from Christian traditions, to consider what they have to say about
'our' biblical exegesis.
I would venture to say that Mr. Jacobovici's movie can be taken as a gentle nudge that there needs to be more collaborative scholarship between Christians and Jews. I do not suppose that that is what his intention was. But I chose to take it that way.
I would also venture to say that Mr. Jacobovici's demeanor in the press conference (see Discovery Channel site), which announced the premiere of the movie, can be taken to be an invitation to both Christians and Jews to take a deep breath, and calmly greet each other ANEW, with gentle and childlike curiosity and respect for the traditions and histories of one another.
The article referred to above, about a tablet that possibly confirms a messianic tradition of resurrection, alive in the decades that preceded the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, is just such an occasion for Jews and Christians to follow Simcha's example of simple curiosity and desire to understand fully where we each 'come from' theologically.
So, once again, thank you Simcha, for setting a beautiful tone.
Let the rest of us follow your example and that of Mr. Cameron, and allow to grow a new era of inter-denominational scholarship.
As Prof. James Charlesworth said at the conference earlier this year, it is wonderful to see humanist specialists as well as those of different faiths working in collaboration.
May this continue.
May each faith be willing to revisit its history, its theology, its doctrinal history, and let new evidence relax the choke-hold of some doctrinal stances.
Is my prayer on this bird-chirping, July Sunday morning.
Indie
.
Name:Judith •
Date: 07/06/08 13:29
A: Wow Indie
Out of the shadows come the voices of people of all walks of life, each of us with our own history :
I am French-Canadian and Inuit, and Irish and Scotish.
My catholic ancestors might roll over in their grave at the present
Your almost as mixed as I am ( Lot's of Laughs}
Name:Judith •
Date: 07/06/08 13:55
A: Panluna
I'm curious about something and maybe you can answer my question.You wrote that you are part Innuit.My question is: There are many different native tribes in the Americas-----Did they speak a common language understandable by all of the tribes or did each tribe develope their own dialect? In other words :Did each tribe have the same word meaning the same thing or was it different among the groups.I've often wondered if they had actually warred among themselves before the European settlers arrived in the "New World' or since there was plenty of land if their territorial boundaries were respected and the tribes lived at peace with each other.I know that they lived by and respected Nature.
Might find the languages in "Natural History of Western Wild Animals and guide for hinters, trappers, and sportsmen" by David W. Cartwright who was commisioned by the printed 1875 written by Mary F. Bailey, A. M. and I think there is only one copy at a University Wisconsin. I am sure there are several of these travelers who had some one write up their experiences.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/06/08 16:11
A: .
Hi Judith.
Quebec City (in the Province of Quebec, Canada), is the city in French Canada that is about 3 hours east of Montreal, on the Saint Lawrence River.
The Saint Lawrence River is where the waters from Niagara and the Great Lakes end up. Those waters continue on east until they empty into the Atlantic, where the baby seal hunt happens every March.
Quebec City was founded in 1608. So the French Canadian Capital is putting on its birthday party dress this summer... Lots happening in Q-City this summer....
As for your question about the Inuit and Dene (AmerIndian) tribes, I said a little about them in a post above, on this page. The Inuit live farther north than do the Dene (Indian) tribes. The Inuit are a more monolithic cultural group in the sense that they live with snow and ice and , traditionally, hunting and fishing.
The various Dene tribes (American Indian tribes) are a veeeery
diverse group of cultures.
A few years ago, there was a maaaarvelous series that aired on US TV stations, PBS probably, ... it was, like, 11 hours or so! It was fantastic.
They managed to interview representatives from all the major tribes of Native North Americans. They showed how greatly different the tribes were the ones from the others. Some tribes being more war-faring, others being more pacifist and matriarcal.
Up here in my neck of the woods, the expert whose writings I've read (in French) are those of a historian-anthropologist by the name of Denys Delage, who teaches in Quebec City at the university there.
It would seem that one of the sources for the idea of democracy and of "confederation" in the Americas comes from a loose political structure of confederated tribes whose "grand central meeting place" was in the area of the Great Lakes.
Also, Jose Arallaino, originally from Mexico, an engineer, married someone from French Canada, and he has become a specialist in Dene (Indian) history. I think he writes in English... Not sure about that.
What struck me is when I took my courses is that 90% of Native populations were dead from European bacteria before the year 1600.
So those of us who look Native, are necessarily of mixed blood, to varying degrees.
The the far north, the Anglican Church is now more prevelant.
The Government of Canada just signed an official apology (June 2008) to survivors of abuse in the so-called Residential Schools; these were Catholic boarding school where Dene children were sent, by force, and forbidden to speak their native languages.
The most spectacular efforts to save and rejuvinate aboriginal culture, in Canada, in recent years, is the creation of Nunavit, in the far north of Canada, where Inu populations have their own political and educational structures.
Just Google the word 'Nunavit' and read on.
Peace,
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/08/08 22:56
A: .
Cool.
I just read Dr. Tabor's latest addition to his blog.
He comments on an article by another author, on the tablet I refer to above.
A: Hi Indie
Thought you might be interested in a diary of a little girl who was on the Mayflower. It was found in and old trunk and finally published.
Dear America , A Journey to the New World , Diary of Remember Patience Whipple
Page 131 August 25, 1621
Dear Imp
Today I was out in the file near the large pind. I wandered to the inland end of the pond and heard children laughing. It could have been our pilgrim childen. for when Indian children laugh it does sound just like ourselves, which makes me think all children on earth must laugh alike. I crept closer and couched down in the bery bushes and peered through.There, were the lily pads grow so thick, a half a dozen Indian children were swimming and diving. When they came up they were clutching the roots of water lilies, They are gathering them for something . I shall ask Squanto .
But what is amazing to me is that these children are all so strong and healthy despite playing about in the water. We have been taught to fear water, not simply because one might drown but because we think that it washes off the body's natural protection. I am beginning to wander about this now. I think if it is not true. I shouls like to learn how to swim. I of course would not go naked.
